TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Why did you get FSD?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by gearchruncher, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. gearchruncher

    gearchruncher Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Based on the spreadsheet, over 10% of the configurations so far have included FSD. I'm interested in why someone would buy this now.

    As a previous 2016 Model X owner with AP2, I got to see just how slow AP2 development is, not even hitting the features of a 2014 AP1 car after over a year of development. This gives me no faith that FSD is anywhere near. After using AP2 for 18 months, I'm struggling to figure out if EAP is worth it, much less FSD.

    On top of this, financially, if FSD is two years away, then giving Tesla $3,000 now doesn't make any sense to me. You pay sales tax on that now, in some states you'll pay more for yearly registration, and if you have a loan you're paying interest on it. Yes, there is the threat by Tesla that it will be $4,000 in the future, but wouldn't you rather pay $4,000 in two years for something that actually exists and you know what you are buying instead of a complete unknown today?

    I'm interested what other mindset people have that caused them to make a different decision.
     
  2. MrRandyB

    MrRandyB Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2016
    Messages:
    246
    Location:
    Delaware
    It may no longer $4,000 when the software is ready, also if hardware upgrades are needed Tesla should retrofit for those who have already paid.
     
    • Like x 5
  3. Tony_YYZ

    Tony_YYZ Tezler Guru

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,856
    Location:
    Caledon, ON Canada
    I agree with what you're saying and would never drop money on something that is essentially vaporware at this point. I think FSD is still around the better part of a decade away, between software readiness and regulatory approvals. I don't know if I'll even have the same car at that point so it doesn't make much sense in my case to waste money on the purchase of FSD now.
     
    • Like x 4
  4. Drone Flyer

    Drone Flyer Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    1,127
    Location:
    Canada
    All I can say is that anyone who bought into the FSD myth did not understand the fact that, even if Tesla gets around to making it work properly, legislation will hamper acceptance on this for at least 5 years, maybe more. By the time vehicles can use FSD, the current Teslas will be off the road anyway due to age and being obsolete and new ones will be out.
     
    • Like x 4
    • Disagree x 3
  5. Thomas Edison

    Thomas Edison Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,507
    Location:
    Portland-ish
    This
     
    • Like x 6
  6. pkodali

    pkodali Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    816
    Location:
    Sacramento
    The terms clearly say that all cars come with full self driving hardware, so they would have to retrofit for any other changes. Also, I would like to think that the 4K price is fixed because I don't think the terms said anything about the price changing
     
    • Like x 1
    • Disagree x 1
  7. d21mike

    d21mike Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,092
    Location:
    Torrance, CA 90503
    I think Tesla has in the past change the options and pricing. I believe AP1 was $2500 when it came out. They changed that to $5000 when AP2 came out and also added the $3000 FSD option. And those prices are only if you buy it at time of purchase. To say they will never change the $4000 FSD Price after purchase is possible but not an absolute. However, they could could also simply lower the price for FSD at some point and those that did not purchase could get it cheaper. I think the odds are better they will increase the price. But who knows.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. gearchruncher

    gearchruncher Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    From the Tesla autopilot page:

    If the car needs a HW upgrade, they need to upgrade all cars for free. If at any point it becomes clear that Tesla is charging for hardware to make FSD work, they are in for a class action lawsuit because their advertising was clear on what you were buying.

    I do agree that Tesla can change the FSD pricing at any time. That's a fair point. But if they raise it only for cars made with earlier FSD hardware, then they are clearly charging for hardware.
     
  9. gearchruncher

    gearchruncher Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    AP1 went from $2,000 to $2,500 to $3,000 over 2 years. The $5,000 was for EAP on AP2 cars, that would supposedly have additional features over AP1, but none of those have appeared yet. They let people with orders in for AP1 cars that were converted to AP2 to keep the $3K AP1 features and told them they'd only get the additional EAP features fro the additional $2K ($3K after purchase), so it's clear the $2K increase was for additional things EAP was supposed to do (which they were supposed to do in December 2016 but still don't)
     
    • Helpful x 1
  10. d21mike

    d21mike Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,092
    Location:
    Torrance, CA 90503
    I purchased both EAP and FSD. I have kept both my last two over 15 years. 1985 Corvette which I sold to get a Lexus SC430 in 2003 (18 years). I still have the Lexus as a spare car (15 years). I plan to keep the Tesla Model S 2017 for at least 5 years.

    From what I have read on these forums those that are against FSD feel that you will either get FULL FSD or nothing. As we know FULL EAP is still not available so it makes since we could get some FSD Features well before the FULL FSD is complete. That is my bet. And I do feel that they will replace my AP CPU if necessary for FREE since I purchased FSD. And for $3000 is 3% the cost of my car so for me not a big expense. However, I would not have gotten the FSD option if I was not planning to keep the car for at least 5 years.

    LASTLY, I just noticed this is on the Model 3 forum. So the cost of FSD is about 6% of the cost so that is different.
     
    • Like x 2
  11. d21mike

    d21mike Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,092
    Location:
    Torrance, CA 90503
    How about this? Tesla determines that to make FSD work they will need a faster AP Computer then they have now. And that computer will cost twice as much as now. So they decide to increase the price of FSD from $3000 ($4000 after purchase) to $6000 and ($7000 after purchase). I believe they can change price at any time like going from $2500 (AP) to $5000 (EAP). So anyone that has already purchased FSD they would get the faster AP Computer for FREE and those that did not purchase FSD could then purchase FSD for the NEW Higher Cost of $7000 and they would get the faster AP Computer for FREE.
     
    • Like x 1
  12. kdday

    kdday Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2016
    Messages:
    1,050
    Location:
    AZ
    A gentle (frustrating) reminder that while FSD is the topic at hand, nobody has any "E" in AP yet.

    "E"AP needs to come first. We've not seen anything there yet either.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Informative x 1
  13. azred

    azred Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,826
    Location:
    Chandler, AZ
    And the post-purchase S60 to S75 software upgrade went from $9000 to $6000 and currently $2000 in less than a year. No one outside the walls of Tesla can possible know what the post-purchase cost of FSD will be in a year or two. It could be more, the same — or less. My wallet is betting on less.
     
    • Informative x 1
    • Like x 1
  14. daniel

    daniel Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2009
    Messages:
    4,524
    Location:
    Kihei, HI
    For that matter, "autopilot" is very far from being an autopilot. EAP is just a name for the set of features in the package that has the name. I'm not concerned about the name.

    However, we are not going to have FSD licensed for sale to the public in five years. My guess is ten years, That's why I didn't pay for FSD. My thinking is this: When FSD does become available there will be better implementations, and inferior implementations. All will meet the regulations in order to be sold, but (I speculate that) retrofitting FSD software onto older hardware will result in less than the best implementation.

    When that time comes, if I'm still alive and ambulatory, I will want a car whose hardware has been optimized for the software, not a car whose older hardware merely allows it to pass the tests. I will buy a new car when it comes out with FSD.

    As an aside, when we talk about FSD, are we talking Level 4 or Level 5? Level 5 may be a very long way away. (Able to drive itself on all roads under all conditions.) We may get Level 4 long before that. (Able to drive itself without human intervention on most roads, under most conditions.)
     
  15. SpiceWare

    SpiceWare Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2015
    Messages:
    822
    Location:
    Fresno, Texas
    In this car-centric country we live in, I see it as an investment in keeping my independence in the future.
     
  16. jamnmon66

    jamnmon66 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    565
    Location:
    Brighton, CO
    I guess I'm optimistic that they'll pull it off. And, I suppose , it's a bit of a vote of confidence in Musk. Is it pie in the sky potential vaporware?. . maybe. But I understand the risk. If it turns out that way, then my bet is that I'll be able to get a refund. Does that mean that I'm giving Tesla a free loan for a few years until they figure it out?... Yes, but I've already done that with the reservation & so did ~4-500,000 other people. This is not much of a stretch beyond that.

    Additionally, I want to support that feature becoming real. This level of technology is the closest thing to magic in the real world and I want it to actually happen. I think that it is possible but only with a considerable amount effort, time & money. Corporations, in general, will only pursue big endeavors like this that have perceived demand and I want to do this one thing that I can actually do to show that the demand is there.

    Not much about this purchase is frugal. The cheap operating costs & tax credits soften the blow. But, even with that, this is the most I've ever spent on a car. If I was being strictly practical about transportation, I'd buy a $10-15k used car. I've done the math and the 5-6% additional cost isn't going to hurt my budget so it's not like I'm failing to feed my family to make this decision.

    Maybe you'll think I have my head in the clouds but those are my reasons for doing it.
     
    • Like x 3
    • Love x 1
  17. gearchruncher

    gearchruncher Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    There is a huge difference between a $1,000 reservation that is defined as full refundable at any time by request, and a $3,000 purchase for something that Tesla says is coming in the future and carries no defined right of return. When I asked Tesla for my $2,500 back for EAP since it was supposed to work 2 weeks after I got my car and a year later it still did nothing, they asked me to be "patient" and refused to refund. As long as they claim to be working on it, the $3K is theirs to keep. I wouldn't assume you can ever get it back.

    Anyway, I appreciate your point of view and thanks for sharing it.
     
    • Like x 2
  18. gearchruncher

    gearchruncher Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Yes, as long as they charge that $7K to everyone, even if their car doesn't need a hardware upgrade. They can change the cost to enable FSD after purchase whenever they want, to whatever they want, as long as it's not tied to hardware. At some point we may very well see the price for FSD on a new car be $3K, but for post-delivery be $10K.

    Now, if they do that big of a jump after it becomes clear some cars need a hardware upgrade, they may still be in trouble as their website says in no uncertain terms that the car has the hardware needed today, so you aren't getting what you bought.
     
  19. daniel

    daniel Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2009
    Messages:
    4,524
    Location:
    Kihei, HI
    I also see it as an important element of my independence when I get too old to drive.

    I am very confident they will pull it off. I just expect it to take longer than 5 years, and I expect that when it does come, the best implementations will need more hardware than my Model 3 has. They may be able to make FSD, at least at Level 4, work in the 2017 and 2018 Model 3. But I think it will work better in the cars built after the software is operational and they have a better idea of what inputs are needed or desirable.

    I am confident that Tesla will do right by the people who are paying for it now. And Tesla has every right to raise the price at any time they choose. I still prefer to wait for the technology to be available to buyers.
     
  20. Isaiah F.

    Isaiah F. Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    “All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.

    Their legal out is that statement right there. Substantial can be left up to interpretation (2x? 5x? 20x?). IF the regulators determine that 20x is needed, Tesla can claim their car delivers 2x but that is not enough. I believe they would legally be in the clear based on the other language around government approval. They might have to refund money for those that purchased the option, but likely wouldn’t be required to retrofit hardware.

    Not a lawyer, but just my interpretation on how this might get spun based on their carefully worded language.
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC