Why do people think Recaro is making the Next Generation seats?

[darthy001]

I am surprised that some people are so agitated about whether or not they get rear seats with somewhat bigger side bolsters and slightly taller headrests, or don't get them. It's not a big deal in the scheme of things.

At least Tesla appeared to be listening to feedback from those who received the Next Gen rear seats. If it was overwhelmingly negative, then stopping offering them would be the right decision.

Okay, now you can criticize me for giving Tesla a pass, for not caring about Tesla not communicating personally with every new owner who expected a slightly different rear seat, or whatever. Fire away...

Seats in a car are a vital part of the car experience in my world. The rear and front seats in the old design actually kept me from going through with my initial model s reservation in 2013. So please dont come tell me that seats dont matter for you so it shouldnt really matter to anyone else. Thats is honestly degrading to me and others with different views, and something I would not expect from someone like you who normally post wellfounded comments and remarks here on the boards. Truly a disappointing comment from you.

I purchased a set of seats, at a premium price, and based a big part of my decision to buy the P85D on the fact that the old, and to me not comfortable, seats had been replaced. And now you tell me I shouldnt really care?

This is indeed a big deal in the scheme of things. At least for me, and obviously many others as well.

 

[jpet]

Seats in a car are a vital part of the car experience in my world. The rear and front seats in the old design actually kept me from going through with my initial model s reservation in 2013. So please dont come tell me that seats dont matter for you so it shouldnt really matter to anyone else. Thats is honestly degrading to me and others with different views, and something I would not expect from someone like you who normally post wellfounded comments and remarks here on the boards. Truly a disappointing comment from you.

I purchased a set of seats, at a premium price, and based a big part of my decision to buy the P85D on the fact that the old, and to me not comfortable, seats had been replaced. And now you tell me I shouldnt really care?

This is indeed a big deal in the scheme of things. At least for me, and obviously many others as well.

+1, darthy

 

[gpetti]

I am surprised that some people are so agitated about whether or not they get rear seats with somewhat bigger side bolsters and slightly taller headrests, or don't get them. It's not a big deal in the scheme of things.

At least Tesla appeared to be listening to feedback from those who received the Next Gen rear seats. If it was overwhelmingly negative, then stopping offering them would be the right decision.

Okay, now you can criticize me for giving Tesla a pass, for not caring about Tesla not communicating personally with every new owner who expected a slightly different rear seat, or whatever. Fire away...

In the big scheme of things that people complain about, I can't imagine that they already have enough data to decide that it is "overwhelmingly negative" it's barely one month of deliveries and a bunch of us stilll don't have the cars/seats. The right thing to do would be to allow owners to choose which type of rear seat they want and then ultimately see (as they did with a couple of the colors) if in fact nobody is ordering one or other of the seats. This of course would add complexity to the ordering (not a huge issue) but more importantly might slow down their build process - i.e. they are trying to remove the number of choices. This is probably their least favorite option but they kind of painted themselves into this corner and maybe for the time being they should take the hit on production until they resolve this mess.

 

[tc4542]

Ok, here's what I think... I bet you they got into it with Recaro over this airbag thing to the point of no resolution/impending litigation. Of course this was at a very critical time for the release of the "D". Rather than continue their relationship with Recaro, they found a new manufacture. Of course the new manufacture has to ramp up production from zero, a daunting task, hence the, "no idea when you'll get your new seats" bit. Then due to potential litigation, Tesla got very quiet with all of us, started delaying production, quietly changed the Monroney's, etc... Now we see deletion of the NG rear seats today which could be for a myriad of reasons beyond complaints.. How the heck can you get complaints when nobody, except a few, have them?? There is no way Tesla would respond to the complaints of just a few out there this quickly, makes no sense. I smell BS. I think the NG rear seats were going to be made by Recaro and now they're not. Heck, who knows but Tesla, the cost to make the rear seats by the new group might have been price prohibitive and/or even time prohibitive, especially with NG front seat nightmare still pending... All of this pretty much explains everything going on. I will guarantee you this, heads were rolling behind closed doors about mid December when they found out these seats were wrong, what a nightmare. As for Tesla going quiet, maybe they had to because their council advised them to. Somebody's butt is going to be in hot water over this seat deal. Its going to cost Tesla a pretty penny once all is said and done let alone a reputation/credibility hit well in the making.... My two sense, YMMV.

And I agree. My order was based on the new seats as I got to test drive a "D" with both front and rear NG's a few weeks ago. I wouldn't want the car without them. It is a big deal.

Now for the kicker... If indeed they are/did change manufactures, these new ones better be exactly like those Recaros or I'm out. Those seats were very nice, better than any Recaros I've ever been in. They were snug on the side bolsters but not too snug like Porsche adaptives tend to be. They had great rear cushions and comfort unlike any Recaro I've experienced too. The rears, albeit the folding issue, were much nicer. I got to go between the old and new several times. The cars were parked right next to each other. SO, Tesla better make sure they match those seats exactly with whoever is making them (if indeed they did change) or that could be really bad... In fact I will likely delay until I can sit in another one with the Next Gen/Next Gen seats to verify. Remember Tesla legally can change without notice. Removing "Recaro" from the Monroney has already established intent. This is a big deal.

 

[Subhuman]

I agree Tesla is dropping the ball big time with the whole seat issue. Not even econoboxes have missed matched seats. I'm obsessed with Tesla the company and the vehicles it makes however this whole seat thing does make me pause a little. Getting the seats that you ordered should not be this complicated. If the seats were not ready for primetime they should't have been added as an option. I agree someone's head is rolling from this debacle.

On a side note the executive seat option is in the style of the original seats and not the next gen. You would have thought they would have developed them in tandem with the next-gen.

 

[tc4542]

I think they're in a panic and probably just secured the new manufacture very recently. I really don't think they saw this coming. I think it hit them like an earthquake, completely unexpected and at about the worse time imaginable. I think they have been at Defcon-1 for the last month. If indeed there are lawsuits brewing then they had to do what they had to do. At some point though someone needs to come clean and explain what's going on. Its bad for business. Like I said, my concern is the New NG seats may be slightly different, which to me could very likely be a deal breaker. The rears are still up for debate albeit the only thing that did bother me about those was the lower bolsters, and the potential major wear and tear caused by kids sliding over them constantly.

Has anybody thought about the 100's of seats that may have been wrongly manufactured by Recaro, or whoever, that are just sitting somewhere? What a mess... This is costing someone a whole lot of money.

 

[Dbitter1]

I think they're in a panic and probably just secured the new manufacture very recently. I really don't think they saw this coming. I think it hit them like an earthquake, completely unexpected and at about the worse time imaginable. I think they have been at Defcon-1 for the last month. If indeed there are lawsuits brewing then they had to do what they had to do.

Don't they have to disclose lawsuits or threats thereof in their 10Q (or whatever, I'm not a stockbroker) filing? I'd think they need to say SOMETHING about Seatgate, right?

 

[tc4542]

Seatgate I don't know. There very well might not even be a law suit. They may just have parted ways and jumped ship. Whatever the case, no doubt there's lots of weird behavior going on with these seats and its not just coincidence... They didn't just pull the "Recaro" off the Monroney because they suddenly wanted to protect their supplier. It just doesn't make any sense when you throw in the known facts and think it through... Something catastrophic happened internally and they're just working through it. The thing is they'll make it right for all of those who are in the cue, that's why they're Tesla. Personally I just want THOSE seats I sat in, or the exact equivalent, whether I have to wait or not.

If I was Elon I would have never promised this car to be out by year end. That's where the problems started for everybody including them. If he just would have said first quarter it would have gone so much more smoothly. I mean heck, with the performance of this thing it would have sold regardless but without all the drama. Of course I'm sure there were investor reasons to push on through, if so not sure that panned out so well at this point Here's what they didn't do, plan for any of this to happen. As far as they knew the NG seats, front and rear, were going to be the ones they were going with, but THEN....

 

[Andyw2100]

My P85D went into production around December 10, and I am 99% sure "Recaro" appears no where on my window sticker. I will check again on Wednesday night, when I will be where the sticker is.

I was correct. My window sticker does not say "Recaro." All it says is "Grey Next Generation Seats." It sounds like I'm not alone, and that others receiving cars later in the process also did not have "Recaro" on their window stickers.

The thing is they'll make it right for all of those who are in the cue, that's why they're Tesla. Personally I just want THOSE seats I sat in, or the exact equivalent, whether I have to wait or not.

My concern now is that it may not be that simple.

If it turns out that the first seats really were Recaro, and now they are changing manufacturers, while Tesla may have every intention of making the seats just as well as Recaro did, the question is will they succeed? And for argument's sake, even if they appear to succeed, and you sit in the seats, and they feel to you exactly the same as the Recaro seats felt, that won't necessarily prove anything about the seats' longevity. Recaro is a known quantity, and is known to build high quality seats that are durable. If you compare seat manufacturing to, say mattress manufacturing, it might be hard to tell a medium quality mattress and a high quality mattress apart when they are new. The differences are going to be more readily apparent a few years down the road. My point is if anyone other than Recaro is going to be building the Next Generations seats, I really feel like Tesla is short-changing those of us who ordered and paid for the first iteration of Next Generation seats. We paid for those when they were being made by Recaro, chose to accept our cars expecting to get those seats, very possibly after having test-driven cars that had those seats, and then, months later, and having been inconvenienced without compensation, may be getting an inferior product. Again, there is an "if" in my comment. We don't know that this is what Tesla is doing. It is entirely possible that Recaro is still going to be building the Next Generation seats. But if they aren't, then I think that's a problem.

 

[wk057]

I redesigned my same P85D in the design studio, and it comes out to $1k cheaper now that it doesn't show the rear next gen seats...

 

[Andyw2100]

I redesigned my same P85D in the design studio, and it comes out to $1k cheaper now that it doesn't show the rear next gen seats...

Are you sure that's not because of the lower price for the Premium Interior Package? Tesla has now included the yacht floor as standard, and reduced the price of the Premium Interior Package by $1000.

 

[wk057]

Are you sure that's not because of the lower price for the Premium Interior Package? Tesla has now included the yacht floor as standard, and reduced the price of the Premium Interior Package by $1000.

That could be. I didnt check every item, just noted that it was now $1k cheaper for the same options since the rear seat change

 

[MarcG]

That could be. I didnt check every item, just noted that it was now $1k cheaper for the same options since the rear seat change

It's not the seats, must be your premium package (was $4500, is now $3500). I also reconfigured mine and the price is still exactly the same (I did not get the premium package).

 

[gpetti]

That could be. I didnt check every item, just noted that it was now $1k cheaper for the same options since the rear seat change

Yeah the premium interior package has dropped $1,000 on the Canadian site (from $4,600 to $3,600) and by all accounts by the same amount on the US - it's 3,500 now. The seats still show the same price.

 

[tc4542]

Andy I agree 100%. You added what I meant to in your post about the quality/longevity of Recaros. Seats aren't easy to make. My bet is they're changing and that does bother me. Recaro is very independent too, hard to deal with I've heard. In fact wasn't it announced recently that some company was gearing up to make all of the Tesla seats and headliners? Found it, here it is:

"Futuris, based in Australia, didn’t have much of a presence in North America until it landed a contract to build the seats for Tesla’s Model S sedan. The deal brought Futuris inside the automaker’s Fremont plant. Now Tesla is gearing up for the Model X, and the anticipated growth put Futuris in the market for its own home. The company, which does about $430 million in sales annually around the globe for automakers including Ford Motor Co., General MotorsCo., Toyota Motor Corp. and China’s SAIC Motor Corp. Ltd., is investing about $20 million to get the plant up and running."

Here is the link to the article.
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/print-edition/2014/08/01/seat-maker-futuris-ramps-up-in-newark-reshores.html?page=all

Maybe these are the non NG seats but the article says "all seats".

 

[Andyw2100]

Andy I agree 100%. You added what I meant to in your post about the quality/longevity of Recaros. Seats aren't easy to make. My bet is they're changing and that does bother me. In fact wasn't it posted recently that some company in CA was gearing up to make all of the Tesla seats and headliners? Here it is:

"Futuris, based in Australia, didn’t have much of a presence in North America until it landed a contract to build the seats for Tesla’s Model S sedan. The deal brought Futuris inside the automaker’s Fremont plant. Now Tesla is gearing up for the Model X, and the anticipated growth put Futuris in the market for its own home. The company, which does about $430 million in sales annually around the globe for automakers including Ford Motor Co., General MotorsCo., Toyota Motor Corp. and China’s SAIC Motor Corp. Ltd., is investing about $20 million to get the plant up and running."

Someone posted somewhere that Futuris had nothing to do with the Next Generation seats, though. According to that post, which was made before today's news broke, Futuris made headliners and the other seats, but definitely not the Next Gens. Of course now, who knows.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I am surprised that some people are so agitated about whether or not they get rear seats with somewhat bigger side bolsters and slightly taller headrests, or don't get them. It's not a big deal in the scheme of things.

It absolutely is a big deal if that's how Tesla represented the feature and that's what customers thought they were paying for. We call that material misrepresentation.

- - - Updated - - -

If it turns out that the first seats really were Recaro, and now they are changing manufacturers, while Tesla may have every intention of making the seats just as well as Recaro did, the question is will they succeed? And for argument's sake, even if they appear to succeed, and you sit in the seats, and they feel to you exactly the same as the Recaro seats felt, that won't necessarily prove anything about the seats' longevity. Recaro is a known quantity, and is known to build high quality seats that are durable. If you compare seat manufacturing to, say mattress manufacturing, it might be hard to tell a medium quality mattress and a high quality mattress apart when they are new. The differences are going to be more readily apparent a few years down the road. My point is if anyone other than Recaro is going to be building the Next Generations seats, I really feel like Tesla is short-changing those of us who ordered and paid for the first iteration of Next Generation seats. We paid for those when they were being made by Recaro, chose to accept our cars expecting to get those seats, very possibly after having test-driven cars that had those seats, and then, months later, and having been inconvenienced without compensation, may be getting an inferior product. Again, there is an "if" in my comment. We don't know that this is what Tesla is doing. It is entirely possible that Recaro is still going to be building the Next Generation seats. But if they aren't, then I think that's a problem.

Now hold on... Tesla nowhere said on its order page anywhere that the next-gen seats were made by Recaro. Your question regarding long term wear applies to all seats, not just Recaro. Tesla's previous seats were not Recaro and nobody asked questions about longevity. Nobody who paid for the performance seats previously had the same questions or incensed attitude. I think what you wrote is reaching a bit. The only way you know what's on the Monroney sticker is after you take delivery, and that's when some discovered that the seats might have been made by Recaro.

There is no way you can demand Recaro seats or Recaro-quality in non-Recaro seats when Tesla never sold you Recaro seats to begin with. They sold you "next generation" seats. That's all it says on the ordering and all marketing pages. No way you could have ordered Recaro seats according to what Tesla represents on their web site and ordering pages. If I'm wrong, please point out where they indicate the seats are Recaro during the ordering process.

 

[Gizmotoy]

Now hold on... Tesla nowhere said on its order page anywhere that the next-gen seats were made by Recaro. Your question regarding long term wear applies to all seats, not just Recaro. Tesla's previous seats were not Recaro and nobody asked questions about longevity. Nobody who paid for the performance seats previously had the same questions or incensed attitude. I think what you wrote is reaching a bit. The only way you know what's on the Monroney sticker is after you take delivery, and that's when some discovered that the seats might have been made by Recaro.

There is no way you can demand Recaro seats or Recaro-quality in non-Recaro seats when Tesla never sold you Recaro seats to begin with. They sold you "next generation" seats. That's all it says on the ordering and all marketing pages. No way you could have ordered Recaro seats according to what Tesla represents on their web site and ordering pages. If I'm wrong, please point out where they indicate the seats are Recaro during the ordering process.

I'm not sure it even matters. Recaro was involved with the design of the seats. Does it really matter who puts all the pieces together? You're paying for Recaro's knowledge in designing supportive and comfortable seating. If their name isn't embroidered onto the headrest, which would imply some misrepresentation, does it even matter who actually put the thing together?

The Recaro-branded seats in my Evo are the most comfortable seats I've ever sat in, and they only have two-way adjustment (slide forward/back and seat tilt). I often have back pain, and took a 5 day cross-country trip without any issue. That's good design. That said, the stitching and construction on them is pretty poor. I'd gladly take Recaro's design and let someone else take a crack at actually putting them together.

 

[Andyw2100]

Now hold on... Tesla nowhere said on its order page anywhere that the next-gen seats were made by Recaro. Your question regarding long term wear applies to all seats, not just Recaro. Tesla's previous seats were not Recaro and nobody asked questions about longevity. Nobody who paid for the performance seats previously had the same questions or incensed attitude. I think what you wrote is reaching a bit. The only way you know what's on the Monroney sticker is after you take delivery, and that's when some discovered that the seats might have been made by Recaro.

There is no way you can demand Recaro seats or Recaro-quality in non-Recaro seats when Tesla never sold you Recaro seats to begin with. They sold you "next generation" seats. That's all it says on the ordering and all marketing pages. No way you could have ordered Recaro seats according to what Tesla represents on their web site and ordering pages. If I'm wrong, please point out where they indicate the seats are Recaro during the ordering process.

You missed my point.

I agree that when we ordered we did not know the seats were Recaro.

At the point that Tesla came to us and said you can take your car the way it is, and we'll install the Next Generation seats later, or keep the seats you have and get a credit (or--implied--refuse delivery), we DID know that the seats we WOULD BE GETTING LATER were made by Recaro because by that point we had seen Recaro on other window stickers. And at least for me, by that point I had experienced one of the Recaro seats, in a test drive P85D. They were promising us the same seats. They weren't promising us some potentially different seat. The Next Generation seats that people were getting were Recaro seats. So that promise, for those same Next Generation seats, made at the time I took delivery, has become part of the agreement I have with Tesla.

Edit: Also, just where do I demonstrate anything close to an "incensed attitude?" I simply made a point that others may or may not agree with.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

There is no way you can demand Recaro seats or Recaro-quality in non-Recaro seats when Tesla never sold you Recaro seats to begin with. They sold you "next generation" seats. That's all it says on the ordering and all marketing pages.

It says "Recaro next-gen seats" on my Monroney sticker. Pretty sure the Feds would be all over that if it turns outs that's not what's provided.