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Why does Tesla use a Resistance Heater instead of Heat Pump

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Heat pump solution is not without issues. More specifically apparently Tesla draws heat from the battery too much and it affects cold weather performance in the new Model 3 performance.


Just highlighting the lack of experience and testing by "the desert people". In any case, can be fixed by software update when they realize what's wrong. But I've been hoping for that for the black-crushed video from the backup camera for 2 years. :(

Just wondering how long it's going to take Tesla to realize none of the camera's except for the ones under the wiper can operate in winter conditions, there's no software update that's going to fix that.
 
Just highlighting the lack of experience and testing by "the desert people". In any case, can be fixed by software update when they realize what's wrong. But I've been hoping for that for the black-crushed video from the backup camera for 2 years. :(

Just wondering how long it's going to take Tesla to realize none of the camera's except for the ones under the wiper can operate in winter conditions, there's no software update that's going to fix that.

i have lost hope. This was absolutely obvious on my first test drive in 2014. When they after that added all the FSD cameras without solving sensor cleaning it was obvious they really don’t get it. They should move Elon to Quebec instead of Texas.
 
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Heat pump solution is not without issues. More specifically apparently Tesla draws heat from the battery too much and it affects cold weather performance in the new Model 3 performance.


Second thoughts on this. This behavior is probably on purpose. Just like removing the "low" regen setting, I believe this behavior allows Tesla to increase the claimed/tested range of the car. Therefore the behavior will likely remain.
 
why not? i thought the cameras are heated?

The deja vu.... Is so strong....

If heat is enough, why do you bother showering? Just use a hair dryer to clean yourself. It's heated.


After 15 minutes of driving down the highway the day after a snowstorm. Salty liquid covering the highway.

Image.jpg
 
Even without salt road grime makes the cameras unusable quickly. Not acceptable to require stopping for a manual clean for FSD.

I just habitually clean the back camera before getting into the car to be able to use it when backing out during winter. In summer it can go months between.

so strange Norwegian sales didn’t fix this. It’s really a major issue.
 
so strange Norwegian sales didn’t fix this. It’s really a major issue.

There is alot of things we in Norway have told them they need to take a second look at.
Like ice buildup on frontlights, your loosing your headlights when driving because the lights have no heat.
But I guess they know better in California then to listen to us Norwegians.
Or like VW and BMW said, Scandinavian countries have so much weird issues with their cars due to climate, which isn't an issue anywhere else, so sometimes their wondering if it is worth it to produce cars for Scandinavian countries.

Remember, we can have over 110 degrees Celsius difference in our backyard (road) in a normal year, and everything in between:)
 
I believe a lot of the reason is that Teslas are cars made by desert people for the desert. Didn't they mess up the initial headlight washers or smth because theyd freeze in the cold and the engineers didnt consider that. Tesla probably does attract some talent but I doubt many engineers are from cold regions.

A good example of the other way around are older BMWs in the desert - I know BMW usually tests their cars in the USA for heat and low quality fuel tests but certainly with the E46 3 series and the equivalent 5 series they didnt engineer the offgassing smell very well - not very pleasant lol.

Tesla did test the Model S in the test center in Sweden where every car company goes to test winter performance.

One area where American cars were better than Japanese cars long after the Japanese started importing, then making cars in the US was in corrosion resistance. The Big 3 American automakers are all based in Detroit, so they gave more thought to the conditions faced in Midwestern US winters than the imports. All those states salt the roads to help keep icing down.

Car design has been shifting to California over the last 30-40 years, not just Tesla. The most prestigious automotive design degree in the world is from Art Center School of Design in Pasadena, CA. Every car company wants graduates of that program, but they found that few of of them want to leave the Los Angeles area. There is a thriving car modification culture there that got it's start with Mexican-American making low riders, specialty cars modified for movies and TV, and non-Hispanic car modders. It's a petri dish for car design ideas and any car designer worth their salt wants to be in it.

Hence Tesla is a Bay Area company that does all it's design work in Southern California. Just about every car company in the world has a design center in the Los Angeles area where at least some of their car design work is done.

Tesla being completely California bases, unlike the rest of the industry, they don't have the pressures from other divisions of the company to make the cars for winter driving like the Big 3 US makers, or Northern European makers have.

There are also some things that come up because of new technology. Headlights for most of the history of cars were incandescent lights, and they became halogens over the last 20 years and LED headlights only became common in the last 10 years. Incandescent and halogen lights produce a lot more heat than LEDs, so they have a tendency to soften ice and snow if not sluff them off entirely.

One of the big issues I see for self driving cars that may not be solvable is sensors becoming fouled from snow and ice as well as road muck. Iced up sensors are a serious problem with aircraft too. Iced pitot tubes can cause the airspeed indicator to malfunction. It was a contributing factor in the Air France Airbus that crashed into the Atlantic about 15 years ago. Though the actual cause of the crash was a junior pilot who did the wrong thing when the pitot tube iced up.

At low altitudes in the winter ice can build up on the nose and foul the radar systems.

A good self driving car should be able to work around one sensor becoming fouled, but it wouldn't be unusual for ice to foul the radar or lidar at the same time road much fouled one or more cameras. A human can compensate for winter conditions, but computers can do one thing humans can do, move the sensors around the car to get a better picture. A human can stick their head out the window if they have to to see better.
 
Tesla did test the Model S in the test center in Sweden where every car company goes to test winter performance.

...

One of the big issues I see for self driving cars that may not be solvable is sensors becoming fouled from snow and ice as well as road muck. Iced up sensors are a serious problem with aircraft too. Iced pitot tubes can cause the airspeed indicator to malfunction. It was a contributing factor in the Air France Airbus that crashed into the Atlantic about 15 years ago. Though the actual cause of the crash was a junior pilot who did the wrong thing when the pitot tube iced up.
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if they were at the Swedish test center, it would have been way up north (likely the one in Arjeplog) - great winters for testing traction control and similar things, but not much salty conditions. The actual driving of the model s on winter surfaces are great - it’s just the basic stuff that is missing. Like headlights and working sensors.

I agree that the sensor problem might not be solvable for all conditions, as Mother Nature can be unpredictable, but now it fails for literally months at end extremely predictable. The front camera that is hidden behind glass (and is heated, as well as wiped by the standard windshield vipers) works fine 99% of the time. Similar cleaning and protection for the other sensors would make them work a lot more robustly. I believe unfortunately that form will continue to trump function until such a time it can be done without any external “ugly” things. But I’m sure the engineering team could do _a lot_ better than this.
 
@nimrooz careto elaborate on 110C difference?
That is 230f swing.

Here near Green Bay WI an average year we see -15f to 95f with records of -32f and 107f, I am sure there are places with a wider swing but not another 90f.

On the AP in wintery road conditions, if there is that much salt the painted lines are likely obscured too so just keeping cameras clean probably wouldn't be enough.

Going into my 4th winter with the S sure there are some "California car" complaints I can make but why go thru life bitching about everything I wish was a little different and enjoy what I do have.
 
Going into my 4th winter with the S sure there are some "California car" complaints I can make but why go thru life bitching about everything I wish was a little different and enjoy what I do have.
^^This^^
some folks are only happy when they have something to complain about.
Its often been said on these forums that someone here would complain that is was unacceptable getting a free car because it wasn't the color they wanted.
 
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Going into my 4th winter with the S sure there are some "California car" complaints I can make but why go thru life bitching about everything I wish was a little different and enjoy what I do have.
A few Tesla employees "gifted" one of our local California ski areas a few HPWCs a number of years ago. Rumor was to have them handy so they could use them when they came up.

California uses sand and some other deicing chemicals but the net result is the same. Very quickly your car is full of road scum and your cameras are covered over.

So I don't think its a lack of Tesla understanding the issue. More likely it's just the typical Tesla priority process.
 
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Tesla did test the Model S in the test center in Sweden where every car company goes to test winter performance.

I don't know if Tesla used a Swedish test center, if they did they probably used the test center Ford built when they owned Volvo. However, not every carmaker uses that one, there are a few winter test centers both in Finland, Sweden and Norway, that alot of car manufacturers uses, some use several of these.

There are also some things that come up because of new technology. Headlights for most of the history of cars were incandescent lights, and they became halogens over the last 20 years and LED headlights only became common in the last 10 years. Incandescent and halogen lights produce a lot more heat than LEDs, so they have a tendency to soften ice and snow if not sluff them off entirely.

This is where Tesla could just look at the other light manufacturers, like hella, Bosch, etc, they have long since put heat elements in their led lamps.
Halogen and xenon melts the snow in snowing and black ice conditions and keep their clarity, but in salty conditions they make the salt slush dry out and create a darkish coating on the lamps that can stick well when trying to clean them.
The last part is shadowing the lamps output almost as much as the ice build up on non heated led.
However, on xenons on 35w or higher the law states that you have to have a lamp washer, which makes much better driving experience then both the leds and the xenons from Tesla, this is also because Tesla made their xenons with less than 35w.
At low altitudes in the winter ice can build up on the nose and foul the radar systems.
This is also happening on our teslas, high humidity and minus centigrades.

@nimrooz careto elaborate on 110C difference?
That is 230f swing.
@SSedan on the summers, highest recorded air temp is usually between 30 to 40 c. Winters is usually around -25c. However, it's not all that unusual for the winter temperature here where I live to dip down to -35c/-40c and stay there for a couple weeks or days.
So my temperature difference mentioned earlier is on the car/sensor surface, or any other surface like house, garage door, etc.
So in air temperature, the difference could really easily be around 80c, surface/sensor/interior temperature differences between the winter and summer can easily be 110c. It's perfectly normal for a surface in the sun or glassed in interior in the sun to reach 60c/70c or more in the summer.

^^This^^
some folks are only happy when they have something to complain about.

-have you ever driven with ice and snow building up on your cars headlights in snowing weather, on curvy slippery roads through a dark forest at pitch black night?

I have to ask, because I have driven thousands of miles both in California, Florida, etc, Germany, turkey, etc. But most of my life I have been driving in Scandinavia and Denmark. There IS a huge difference in the driving of those places, in so much ways.
Whatever you are used to with your driving is usually completely different from another place with a different climate.
I remember my first time driving in a milder climate, I asked for a window and lamp washer liquid at the gas station, they didn't have a clue. They offered a spray bottle. And I was in shock that they never had heard of or used it. But every rental in milder climates only have water in their tanks, and it still smells wrong when I use the washer on rentals on vacations. I'm tuned to my way of life where you need a special liquid that doesn't freeze and cleans your windshield and lamps, others on other places don't need it and maybe have never experienced it or the smell of it.
-But is my needs only things I made up for myself to have something to complain about? Or do my needs differ from yours, due to anything from geographic location to local climate?
 
-have you ever driven with ice and snow building up on your cars headlights in snowing weather, on curvy slippery roads through a dark forest at pitch black night?
Yes, to the point of driving along with a thick layer of ice on the front of the car.
But that's not what I meant, what I meant was why get a Tesla that you know doesn't work for you, then complain about it not being suitable?
 
Yes, to the point of driving along with a thick layer of ice on the front of the car.
But that's not what I meant, what I meant was why get a Tesla that you know doesn't work for you, then complain about it not being suitable?

i love my p85dl and will likely upgrade it in the very near future. But I would love the next model s even more if they fixed some of these things. One can hope that someone from Tesla reads the discussions in these forums and maybe identify some of these issues. Just because the cars are great doesn’t mean we should give up trying to get them improved.
 
Yes, to the point of driving along with a thick layer of ice on the front of the car.
But that's not what I meant, what I meant was why get a Tesla that you know doesn't work for you, then complain about it not being suitable?

Ahaa, I see what you meant now.
However, about the headlamps, Tesla never said anything to me about ice or snow building, when I ordered the car, it was only a few months later when the winter came I asked them about this. But they didn't know about the problem, the previous year all the model s had xenon lamps.
So I filed a "complain" or put an idea in the "ideabox" to Tesla, about heating elements in the glasses of the led headlamps, just like the Hellas or Bosch, or any other good quality led lamps for winter countries.

I didn't know they wasn't suitable for my geographic location when I bought the car, and clearly Tesla wasn't either.
And before anyone ask me, yes, I bought the winter package with the car:p

Do I have a right to complain about my headlights and/or other winter defects?
-Some of these things are things I never paid a thought in my other cars as it just works even if it is led, so my model s is the first time I ever encountered this problem with ice and snow/slush building to the degree that I have to stop and try to get it off without hurting or scratching the "glass".

On another note, I still enjoy my car, even though I almost never use it, but I drove it some last winter and it is still a good car except for the headlamps and sensors that doesn't like snow/slush and/or ice:)
 
Just because the cars are great doesn’t mean we should give up trying to get them improved.

Do I have a right to complain about my headlights and/or other winter defects?
Feedback is fundementally a good thing without which they can't improve. I've always been taught that feedback is a gift.
It would be even better if there were somewhere to submit that to Tesla.