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Why don't other car manufacturers use Panasonic high cap batteries?

Discussion in 'Technical' started by Kitt, Apr 21, 2014.

  1. Kitt

    Kitt Member

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    #1 Kitt, Apr 21, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
    i think Tesla is really breaking ground with those new cells with a capacity of 245wh/kg. Others use 140wh/kg.
    Thats a huge increase.
    So why doesnt use Audi,GM or whoever use those cells, say go in partnersip with Panasonic to build new factories.
    I think this is really the event horizon for e-cars. 200kilos for 49kwh is really big and with a car that weighs only 1300kg(golf) you
    could go really far(400km). I mean you could certainly build now a e-car weighing only 1300 kilo. the whole propulsion system in a ICE car weighs around 300-400kg.
    Why isnt this happening? :mad:
     
  2. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    Possible reasons (don't know if any of these are true, just guessing):

    Tesla's signed purchase agreements cover ALL or substantially all of Panasonic's manufacturing capacity.

    Tesla has patents protecting the use of those format cells in an automobile.

    Some of the battery chemistry was developed by Tesla and they have patents on this.

    Some of the cell physical characteristics were developed by Tesla and they have patents on that.

    Panasonic signed an exclusive supplier agreement with Tesla.

    Other car manufacturers are stupid (never rule out stupidity!).

    I'm sure other people can come up with more reasons. In the end, it doesn't matter, the fact that Panasonic isn't selling these to other manufacturers is enough to tell us that there is, indeed, a good reason for it (even if it is only the last one :) ).
     
  3. RDoc

    RDoc S85D

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    Lead acid batteries work perfectly well to start the engine, what else would a car use a battery for?
     
  4. Kitt

    Kitt Member

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    The arrogance and stupidity of some manufacturers is really surprising. When you hear the officials speaking you forget instantaneously that some of them are even engineers, but now act like morons. (martin winterkorn,Manager VW)
     
  5. ThosEM

    ThosEM Space Weatherman

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    That's a really good question! Also, it's probably central in the move to build a battery factory, and the reason Panasonic's partnership is seen as being so critical to the success of that, besides the investment cash.
     
  6. Kitt

    Kitt Member

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    i have really no clue how those things in business world work. But what i know is that VW is going to invest 102 billion! yeah you have heard right 102 billion into expanding their business over the next 5 years.
    They should build dozens of Gigafactories. Also all the other big players are bathing in money. They only need to invest in Gigafactories like Tesla did.
    It is really really sad. Especially for the older folks like my father that also want to drive an electric car. :crying:
     
  7. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    Tesla is a pure BEV company trying to manufacture long-range BEVs on significant scale. Other companies aren't.

    The result is that Tesla has an aggressive engineering approach and can favor cost over cell performance, while other manufacturers have to have more focus on inherent cell performance and can wait for cost reductions.
     
  8. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    There are some basic differences in battery chemistries and how they need to be handled.
    While Tesla's batteries are cheaper, they also require a lot more management to be safe.
    Tesla has done a masterful job of this and has numerous patents protecting its methods.

    Lower density batteries are inherently safer and so don't require as robust a management system.

    Both are valid for automotive use, it doesn't make the other manufacturers "stupid".
    It does mean they won't have long range EVs and are attacking the market from the short range end.

    They, as you showed, have incredibly deep pockets and can afford to loose money for years while the idea gets traction.
    Tesla does not, and has a mission that is different from any other car manufacturer. So they shot for the moon, took bold steps and risks. And so far, it is working beautifully:biggrin:
     
  9. Kitt

    Kitt Member

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    So Panasonic and Tesla contract is exclusive. No other high energy density batteries out there?
    150km e-cars wont make it.
    That way the revolution will be very slow IMO.
     
  10. Kitt

    Kitt Member

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    #10 Kitt, Apr 22, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
    Ok i think i have found the hair in the soup.
    Cobalt. (26,000$/t) How many cobalt contains a TeslaS? 100kg?
    http://www.miningweekly.com/article/tesla-motors-planned-gigafactory-causing-a-buzz-in-the-cobalt-world-2014-04-02
    Current mining capacity is 85000t/years(worldwide). In future we would need million of tons/year.
    Is it possible. Do we have the reserves in the world?

    So its about many new cobalt mines and graphite manufacturing. Now i understand a bit more why this is happening rather slow.

    http://www.metal.com/newscontent/59135_powering-the-future-3-cobalt-juniors-explain-the-impact-of-tesla-gigafactory
     
  11. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    No, you are off by several orders of magnitude. Each Model S uses about 18 pounds of cobalt in the battery. Even at 500,000 cars per year, we are talking maybe 4,000 tons of cobalt per year. Out of a current worldwide capacity of 85,000 tons, that is achievable.
     
  12. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    And that cobalt isn't consumed, it's just temporarily used in a battery, so assuming 12 years of life for a battery and allowing a 1 year buffer they could theoretically only need 52k tons _ever_ for each 500,000 _annual manufacturing capacity_.
     
  13. Kitt

    Kitt Member

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    18 pounds per 300 kilo battery? come on.....
    Then why are they talking in the same article about doubling current cobalt production for the giga factory???? those claims are paradox.
    How does it behave with electrodes? Can you make them as thin as youu like? DO u only need a reactand surface?
     
  14. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    #14 ItsNotAboutTheMoney, Apr 22, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
    Maybe because the writer of the article doesn't fully understand and calculates it based on LiCoO chemistry used for some consumer batteries instead of the LiNCA that Tesla uses?

    According to Global electric car company could source cobalt from new Langham, Saskatchewan facility the cells that the Model S uses are 9% cobalt by weight. Note that that is the _cells_, not the battery. Consumer cells using LiCoO, it notes, can be up to 60% by weight.
     
  15. Kitt

    Kitt Member

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    ok. lets say 300kg tesla cells with 75kwh(i think Tesla calculated with 70kwh for the gigafab)
    i calculate 27kg then. Maybe they took the steel shells of the cells into account. Then it could be right
    or they estimate progress in the fabrication of the fcells.
     
  16. xxl

    xxl Member

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  17. Tim

    Tim Member

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    Itsnotaboutthemoney is right. Tesla uses nca chemistry which is 9WT% co. Just goes to show how misinformed even so called experts are.
    http://articles.sae.org/11923/
     
  18. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    Because they are not interested in making compelling electric cars.
     
  19. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Because all other car companies are afraid of cannibalizing their existing ICE vehicle business by building a compelling long range EV. They certainly could build a good EV if they wanted to, now even more so with Tesla stating it won't defend its patents if they are used in "good faith".

    Instead the other car companies only build short range "city" or pure "compliance cars" because they have to so they can continue selling their highly profitable ICE vehicles. That keeps them in their comfort zone and their shareholders happy.

    Simply put, they are afraid of jeopardizing their existing business. They are afraid of change and they lack courage and vision, two qualities which Elon has in abundance.
     
  20. sbronle1

    sbronle1 Member

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    This is obviously a thread for engineers and such equally minded individuals. So I have a question perhaps some one can answer. What and where exactly is the status on Hydrogen-ion battery technology???
     

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