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Why don't people compare range while comparing with ICE cars?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by gowthamn, Aug 1, 2017.

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  1. gowthamn

    gowthamn Science

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    I see many articles comparing model 3 with BMW 3 series. But none compare the range. Why is that? A BMW 330i has I think 400 miles range. But Model 3 base has just 220. Also BMW has fast refueling time compared to model 3. And for people without a garage or for long distance travel, this is important.

    I am not telling Model 3 is bad or anything. It has better features in the base model than the bmw, but the comparison should be done fairly.
     
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  2. Runt8

    Runt8 Member

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    I would say the main reason this comparison doesn’t make a lot of sense is the different paradigm of charging at home nightly (so you start each day with a “full tank”) vs the traditional ICE “fill the tank when it’s (mostly) empty.” Range anxiety is an issue that is fairly unique to EVs, but while some people might consider it a mark in the negative column when comparing against ICE vehicles, for the vast majority of people’s use cases it’s a positive. You can’t automatically look at the range of an EV vs an ICE and decide the ICE is better without considering how the vehicle is going to be used.

    I’m planning on using mine to go between work and home, or drive around town, 99% of the time. So in my case, a 220 mile range EV that starts out every day with 220 miles is vastly superior to a 400 mile ICE that I need to fill up with gas once or twice a week.
     
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  3. Phrixotrichus

    Phrixotrichus Member

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    That must be a nice world you live in where everyone can charge their car over night. Considering that most people don`t own a house and live in dense urban areas without private parking spots that`s utopic.

    I completely understand your logic and that will definitely work for you.
    But having a "low range" vehicle is a very big minus to the overall utility for most people, that`s a simple fact.
    I have house/carport etc....and I´d still see the battery upgrade for the model 3 as mandatory for my use-pattern.
     
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  4. Runt8

    Runt8 Member

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    It’s the reality for most EV owners now, and in the near future. EVs don’t make a lot of sense (for now) if you don’t have a way of charging them at home (or work, or somewhere that you are going to be parking a large amount of time). There’s no point in comparing an EV to an ICE unless you are actually able to make an EV work for your specific scenario.
     
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  5. smartypnz

    smartypnz Supporting Member

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    Cuz you can't spit without hitting a gas station.
     
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  6. Phrixotrichus

    Phrixotrichus Member

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    Which is something that the broad public will never bother with.
    Simply put any non-ev nerd simply wants functional parity if he/she is to even consider buying an EV. That`s why simply ignoring the range argument isn`t helpful.....
     
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  7. hly

    hly Member

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    I for one do not want to live within spitting distance of a gas station with all of its noxious fumes to harm my family
     
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  8. jelloslug

    jelloslug Active Member

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    A 330i is not a base model BMW.
     
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  9. KarenRei

    KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei

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    Yes, all of those countless beemer owners who can't manage to get a parking space near their ghetto flats....
     
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  10. Phrixotrichus

    Phrixotrichus Member

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    What if I told you that even most solid middle class flats don`t have guaranteed private parking spots. And last time I checked most public parking spots on the street didn`t have charger spots.....

    Too bad reality exists outside these forums, right?
     
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  11. Stolz25

    Stolz25 Member

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    I think because it's obvious. The range on a gas vehicle is essentially infinite for all intents and purposes. Having to stop after even 100 miles for five minutes to refill is a minor inconvenience to waiting 30-45 minutes to recharge after 200.

    The range becomes irrelevant at that point.
     
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  12. gowthamn

    gowthamn Science

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    Most people don't have a garage to charge. Is tesla wants to be mainstream they have to address that population.
     
  13. KarenRei

    KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei

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    #13 KarenRei, Aug 1, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
    I'm sorry, but your notion that most BMW buyers (who, by the way, have an average income of $163k USD) can't get a charging solution is silly. Only half of the population lives in cities at all. Of these, the percentage of people with six-figure incomes who live in apartments is a fraction (most commute). Of those who do, the percentage who can't get (or don't already have) access to EV charging (at present) is yet another fraction.

    If you're in the fraction of a fraction of a fraction? Fine, don't get a Tesla until your situation changes, or use supercharging once every week or two. Meanwhile, for the vast majority...
     
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  14. gowthamn

    gowthamn Science

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    Most people who live in cities live in apartments or condos. There is no garage to charge. Only after they have a family do they move to a home.
    In order to own a 35 to 50k car you don't need 163k income.
     
  15. KarenRei

    KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei

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    #15 KarenRei, Aug 1, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
    Quick Facts: Resident Demographics| NMHC.org

    63% of Americans total live in a place that they own.

    Of renters, only 35% live in places with 5 or more family units; 43% live in single-family units (rental homes), an additional 5% in mobile homes, and an additional 17% in 2-4 family units (duplexes, etc).

    Even if people who live in large cities, only a fraction live in apartments. NYC, 50%; LA, 42%; Chicago, 30%; etc.

    Only 18% of apartment dwellers have incomes of over $75k - let alone $163k.

    Apartment renters' share of using a vehicle (of *all types*, including motorcycle, taxi,etc) to get to work is 14%.

    In short: your notion that there's some sizeable chunk of beemer owners living in inner-city apartments is flat wrong to begin with. And concerning installation: states with high EV adoption often mandate that tenants have a right to install EV chargepoints if they pay for it. Destination chargers have been springing up all over the place in parking garages in major cities. Etc. But just your very premise is wrong.
     
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  16. John5396

    John5396 Member

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    Phrixo,

    you are correct that the use case for an EV is limited today. There are definitely people who do not have parking with charging available, and they are not going to be early adopters of the Model 3.

    Part of Tesla's vision for this challenge is the future FSD capability. Tesla envisions a time in the future when city dwellers cars will drive themselves to the supercharger in the middle of the night, charge, then return back home ready for the owner to dive out in the morning. This allows the supercharger to be utilized in the middle of the night when electric rates are lowest and server the user like you who does not have home charging.

    Today, Telsa is making ~100K-200K Model S/X vehicles per year intent is to expand model 3 to 500K per year. So less than 1M cars per year is addressing a very tiny portion of the world's demand for Autos. So, the fact that EV's use case does not address everyone or even a majority of customers, especially in the German urban market you are describing is not a problem for Tesla, there are plenty of customers who can install charging at home or work to purchase expected production for some time to come.

    Certainly, you point out a problem that has to be solved for the end of the ICE to arrive.
     
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  17. zer0cool

    zer0cool Member

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    It makes pretty much no sense to compare EV vs. ICE range since ICE range is effectively unlimited. Range is one of the main limiting factors for EV today because EVs take a while to charge. ICE cars have effectively unlimited range since gas stations are everywhere, even in the most remote areas, and take 3 mins to refill.

    Also a BMW 330i has well over 500 mile range if using the same test to assess Tesla range (65mph on highway constant speed 70F degrees exterior temp).

    This is why we will have an ICE car for the foreseeable future. There are just many instances where an EV doesn't work.
     
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  18. North75

    North75 Member

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    I think Phrixotrichus is discussing the situation in Europe, which I imagine is different than in the US. I suspect that the US is not the norm for the worldwide population.
    That being said, there are certainly more than enough households in the US that are ideal for home charging to support Tesla's production for a long time.

    Perhaps in a few years advances in batteries and charging will allow full charging in 5-10 minutes at which point this all really becomes moot, since charging will be no more inconvenient than buying gas today.
     
  19. gowthamn

    gowthamn Science

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    Thanks for the data. Does owning a home mean having a garage?

    I live in a cramped studio with no garage and open parking where there are multiple homes attached to each other and I make more than 163k. Guess I am an outlier.
     
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  20. svp6

    svp6 Member

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    Agree that range is important for EVs. That being said, after almost 3 years of having a model S and my wife an Infiniti, I have yet to find out a real-life situation where we had to take the ICE car because the Tesla was not an option. Given the density of superchargers this is a non-issue, at least in US.
     
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