Why don't people compare range while comparing with ICE cars?

[KarenRei]

Have you shown us any dedicated statistics of that kind? No, you pull up some more or less random numbers and boldly declare that these represent "the percentage of BMW's customer base that are potential Tesla customers" - quite apart from high quality comments like beemer owners and their ghetto flats..

I pulled up literal statistics on apartments in the US. What more could I possibly have presented to make my case?

Anyway, where am I supposed to have that charger installed? At a lamppost out in the street?

Um, the same way that virtually every single streetside charger in the world is installed - either hanging on the outside of a building, or on a pole stuck in the ground? Similar to installing a parking meter streetside, which is something cities do all the time?

This really is not difficult. You're not even trying here.

I'll repeat: have you bothered asking whether you could pay for the installation of a charger if you got an electric car? Do so. If they say no, then you have a point, in your particular case (representing a solid minority of cases). Otherwise, you have nothing backing up your stance.

 

[SageBrush]

It occurs to me that since the US has MPGe,
Why can't we have Rice ?

 

[McRat]

I always get a kick out folk who assume US buyers are always deciding between BMW / Benz / Audi and Tesla.

Based on my reading of this board, some of the most common previous cars owned by Tesla buyers are the Prius, Leaf, and Volt, or other 'green' cars. Tesla has often attracted 'green' drivers. There is also a significant number of folk who have owned >$100k ICE cars.

And with all plug-ins, at least in the USA, the household income tends to be significantly over the mean income. Which is also the demographic for homeowners and home renters.

If one out of 100 homeowners/renters in the USA bought a BEV (not PHEV), the industry could not keep up with demand. There are over 80 million single family detached homes. That's 800,000 EV sales. Global EV + PHEV sales combined will barely hit that number this year, and BEVs fall wildly short.

So it doesn't take wide adopt to set the EV industry on fire, it just takes a small amount.

 

[Barklikeadog]

I work in a city where parallel parking is the norm and it is a free for all. They started to allow chargers on streets but there was a lot of blowback because you are essentially buying a parking space.
Unless urban areas have a billion dollars and nothing to spend it on, it's not about to happen.

 

[TrickyDimitri]

That must be a nice world you live in where everyone can charge their car over night. Considering that most people don`t own a house and live in dense urban areas without private parking spots that`s utopic.

I completely understand your logic and that will definitely work for you.
But having a "low range" vehicle is a very big minus to the overall utility for most people, that`s a simple fact.
I have house/carport etc....and I´d still see the battery upgrade for the model 3 as mandatory for my use-pattern.

Tesla made an accouncement to build more Superchargers in metro markets as a response to Model 3 owners who don't have the ability to charge at home. Of course the timing on specifics remains to be seen, but I believe they are trying to address. No idea when that will come to fruition though, especially in Europe.

 

[KarenRei]

I always get a kick out folk who assume US buyers are always deciding between BMW / Benz / Audi and Tesla.

Tesla Model 3: top 10 cars that reservations holders are replacing with the new EV

1. BMW 3 Series: 21
2. Nissan Leaf: 15
3. Toyota Prius: 13
4. Chevy Volt: 12
5. BMW i3: 12
6. Audi A4: 10
7. Chevy Bolt EV: 8
8. VW eGolf: 6
9. BMW 5 Series: 5
10. Honda Civic: 5

I work in a city where parallel parking is the norm and it is a free for all. They started to allow chargers on streets but there was a lot of blowback because you are essentially buying a parking space.

Well, this for example...

But beyond that, this is really simple. Look at the number of superchargers and public charging stations that have been built already. Now look at the order-of-magnitude scaleup in EV production underway over the next couple years. And the further order of magnitude scaleup that could follow. And the current exponential scaling of the number of charging stations.

There is not going to be a shortage of charging stations. It's really that simple. One by one, municipalities are going to pass laws requiring them in all new parking construction. Not "a couple spaces reserved for EVs" - a large portion of them having chargers, and all of the rest being ready to have them added. Enough chargers that there's no point in "reserved spaces"; they're just parking spaces, period.

Or we can sit back and pretend, against all evidence, that EV production and sales figures have stopped growing and things will continue to exist as they are indefinitely, and simultaneously pretend that there's not as much infrastructure as there actually already is. We'll also pretend that most people can't install their own chargers; we'll pretend that most people need permission from others, and that the answer to a request for permission is overwhelmingly "no". And we'll assume that nobody can charge at work, at stores, and wouldn't bother with superchargers.

Is that a complete list?

 

[Phrixotrichus]

Once again you fail to read anything I wrote (e.g., the number of chargers already existing, the rate of scaleup and thus the number that will exist in the future, the percentage of people who can't add in a charger, etc), and instead focus on talking straight past me as if I'm not even part of the conversation.

Given that you've done this in multiple threads, I will no longer be responding to anything you write in any thread, not simply the ones that you've done this in already. Hopefully others will have more patience for your navel gazing than I.

Adding to my ignore list (the only user present there).

Considering that anything and everything you write is dripping with bias and pure fanboy logic I seriously couldn't care less.

Tesla made an accouncement to build more Superchargers in metro markets as a response to Model 3 owners who don't have the ability to charge at home. Of course the timing on specifics remains to be seen, but I believe they are trying to address. No idea when that will come to fruition though, especially in Europe.

Yeah, I´ve read that also.
Tesla seem to be about the only one who actually care though. And a single company just can`t do all the infrastructure alone.
Even if they multiply their network by 10 it will still be far off the convenience of the gasoline system.

But at least one company is doing sth. Maybe the needed pressure from the governments will come and force the rest of the industry to react in the near future.

There is not going to be a shortage of charging stations. It's really that simple. One by one, municipalities are going to pass laws requiring them in all new parking construction. Not "a couple spaces reserved for EVs" - a large portion of them having chargers, and all of the rest being ready to have them added. Enough chargers that there's no point in "reserved spaces"; they're just parking spaces, period.

Or we can sit back and pretend, against all evidence, that EV production and sales figures have stopped growing and things will continue to exist as they are indefinitely, and simultaneously pretend that there's not as much infrastructure as there actually already is. We'll also pretend that most people can't install their own chargers; we'll pretend that most people need permission from others, and that the answer to a request for permission is overwhelmingly "no". And we'll assume that nobody can charge at work, at stores, and wouldn't bother with superchargers.

god do you even read your own crap? You could as well be a politician. "all will be well, we`re doing something, just have faith."

Much like you, thinking inside your own little box.



There you go again, using "most people" to refer to yourself and some arbitrary population you defined. In reality "most" doesn't matter.

Maybe EV doesn't make sense for you right now. But there are 68.9 million single family detached homes in the US per the 2000 US Census. That is quite a few, even if perhaps it isn't greater than 50% of the population.

ok I´ll make it so simple that even you can understand it. some 50 million americans are NOT "most people". That`s absolutely nothing when you think about the mass market, the biggest being asia.
It´s a lot for a company like tesla but as of now we`re talkingf general EV which you seem to fail to understand.

 

[TrickyDimitri]

I'll bite, since I sold my BMW 330ci to purchase a Tesla.

330ci fuel capacity was 16 gallons (I believe 16.6, but I never put in more that 16). Combined MPG 20 based on my driving. Actually, 19, but I'll round to make it easy. So my "range" was 320 miles.

I drive 60 miles per day. So I was at the gas station roughly every 5.3 days. I just checked my Exxon Speedpass account and it matches this frequency.

Lets say an average of 4 minutes a fill-up. I feel like it is typically more. Sometimes there is a line. Sometimes the station is on the wrong side of the street. Sometimes I go in and purchase a drink. But I think 4 minutes is fair, if not optimistic.

Now I have a S100D. It has, interestingly, 320 miles of range when I charge to 100%. I typically only charge to 80%, so 280 miles. Still enough to easily go my average of 60 miles per day.

Every morning the car is "full". I haven't spent any time at a gas station (not including filling up the 1 gal can for the lawn mower).

I charge at home nightly. I've stopped at a supercharger once on a road trip, for 20 minutes (and used the rest room). Much like when I used to drive the 330ci long distances.

So, the "range" comparison isn't important, as long as one has "enough" range and an easy place to charge.

BTW, I was paying approx $40 per fill-up with the 330ci. $232 per month. I've paid $55 per month for the Tesla model S. Of course, insurance cost and depreciation on an S still makes the S more expensive per mile.

Sounds like you need an electric mower...

 

[azred]

Perhaps a more relevant question is "When is range no longer king?" or "When does the term range anxiety disappear?" Another practical question would be "When does one's bladder rather than one's car decide my stops?" I believe that "test" requires about three or four hours of range. Allowing for Supercharging to 80% and the effects of cold weather and elevation dampen the needed range would probably about 220-240 miles -- and that translates to 300+ advertised range. The Model 3 with 310 is about perfect.

I used to have a Harley with a peanut gas tank. That was crazy. All of my trips, even short ones, were planned based on gas stops. I got rid of that bike pretty fast.

 

[McRat]

Tesla Model 3: top 10 cars that reservations holders are replacing with the new EV

1. BMW 3 Series: 21
2. Nissan Leaf: 15
3. Toyota Prius: 13
4. Chevy Volt: 12
5. BMW i3: 12
6. Audi A4: 10
7. Chevy Bolt EV: 8
8. VW eGolf: 6
9. BMW 5 Series: 5
10. Honda Civic: 5

Well, this for example...

But beyond that, this is really simple. Look at the number of superchargers and public charging stations that have been built already. Now look at the order-of-magnitude scaleup in EV production underway over the next couple years. And the further order of magnitude scaleup that could follow. And the current exponential scaling of the number of charging stations.

There is not going to be a shortage of charging stations. It's really that simple. One by one, municipalities are going to pass laws requiring them in all new parking construction. Not "a couple spaces reserved for EVs" - a large portion of them having chargers, and all of the rest being ready to have them added. Enough chargers that there's no point in "reserved spaces"; they're just parking spaces, period.

Well, I guess I kind of blow their curve if I was a FaceBooky. 3 Volts, plus others not on the list, but...

66 of those cars are green cars. 41 ICE.

So the M3 is actually going to compete with plug-in more than entry level euro sedans.

And it that respect, the M220/M310 is looking really good against the competition.

And this is good. It puts more used affordable EV/PHEVs on the road, and forces the other players to up their ante if they want to play cards.

 

[SageBrush]

but there was a lot of blowback because you are essentially buying a parking space.

I'm not following, please explain.

 

[Just a Reader]

.....
Um, the same way that virtually every single streetside charger in the world is installed - either hanging on the outside of a building, or on a pole stuck in the ground? Similar to installing a parking meter streetside, which is something cities do all the time?

This really is not difficult. You're not even trying here.

I'll repeat: have you bothered asking whether you could pay for the installation of a charger if you got an electric car? Do so. If they say no, then you have a point, in your particular case (representing a solid minority of cases). Otherwise, you have nothing backing up your stance.

It's a public street. Anyone may park there - for days on end if they want to. What's the point of having a charger there when the availability is completely uncertain?

 

[KarenRei]

66 of those cars are green cars. 41 ICE.

Hmm? I count 66 ICE cars, and that's not counting the Volt. And it's a higher percent than I expected.

And as for the plug-ins, they go on the used market, helping those who have no money for a M3 to electrify. No objection to that from me

 

[KarenRei]

It's a public street. Anyone may park there - for days on end if they want to. What's the point of having a charger there when the availability is completely uncertain?

If the parking is in city ownership then the people to talk to are the city. If they say yes (try it) to you paying to install a charging station there then only EVs can charge there. In some localities (again, I have no clue what Frankfurt's regulations are - ask them) the new EV parking spaces are effectively private, for the EV owners. In others, it's for any EV (but the city usually bears responsibility for the construction costs then)

Ask. Don't assert without finding out the facts about your situation.

 

[McRat]

Hmm? I count 66 ICE cars, and that's not counting the Volt. And it's a higher percent than I expected.

And as for the plug-ins, they go on the used market, helping those who have no money for a M3 to electrify. No objection to that from me

'Green' Cars:
Prius/Volt/Bolt/Leaf/i3/eGolf = 66? Right? Not entry level euro ICE cars.

I won't bother with the detailed religious discussion about the EREV Volt. Our harem is close to 90% EV miles. OnStar collects the data.

 

[SageBrush]

some 50 million americans are NOT "most people". That`s absolutely nothing when you think about the mass market, the biggest being asia.
It´s a lot for a company like tesla but as of now we`re talkingf general EV which you seem to fail to understand.

What BS
.You expect Tesla to solve all your inconveniences and sell you a car at local VW prices.

Here is a clue: if you want an EV today, you are going to have to lift a finger and do something about it.

 

[KarenRei]

Green Cars:
Prius/Volt/Bolt/Leaf/i3/eGolf = 66? Right? Not entry level euro ICE cars.

Prius is an ICE vehicle. Good mileage, but still an ICE vehicle.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

What BS
.You expect Tesla to solve all your inconveniences and sell you a car at local VW prices.

Here is a clue: if you want an EV today, you are going to have to lift a finger and do something about it.

Like what? Ask the classic car manufacturers to please please stop raking in money with the classic petrol engines? Or ask them to completely stop all their lobby work?

Oh please......idealistic much?

 

[Barklikeadog]

But beyond that, this is really simple. Look at the number of superchargers and public charging stations that have been built already. Now look at the order-of-magnitude scaleup in EV production underway over the next couple years. And the further order of magnitude scaleup that could follow. And the current exponential scaling of the number of charging stations.

There is not going to be a shortage of charging stations. It's really that simple. One by one, municipalities are going to pass laws requiring them in all new parking construction. Not "a couple spaces reserved for EVs" - a large portion of them having chargers, and all of the rest being ready to have them added. Enough chargers that there's no point in "reserved spaces"; they're just parking spaces, period.

Or we can sit back and pretend, against all evidence, that EV production and sales figures have stopped growing and things will continue to exist as they are indefinitely, and simultaneously pretend that there's not as much infrastructure as there actually already is. We'll also pretend that most people can't install their own chargers; we'll pretend that most people need permission from others, and that the answer to a request for permission is overwhelmingly "no". And we'll assume that nobody can charge at work, at stores, and wouldn't bother with superchargers.

Is that a complete list?

This is fantasy type of stuff here. Only a few years ago new constructions were building off street parking, as in a garage door/drive under a townhouse and the
width of the drive is no wider than where a car would parallel park.
Easy right?
Until you find out that all politics is local, specially zoning, and the other 99% cry foul and just like that, getting a permit for off street parking is near impossible.

Many people live on streets where they can't park in front of their place. They are across the street or on a different street entirely.
How does someone install their own charger -not- on their own property???
If my friends are lucky, they can park in front of their rowhouse. Most of the time they park a block away, or two blocks away, or on a completely different street entirely.

What do you mean by 'pretend that people need permission' to install chargers?
I am talking about urban areas, and you'd better believe you need permission to dig up the city sidewalk. Right now that permission has been denied to all.

 

[KarenRei]

This is fantasy type of stuff here.

Yes, those of us who have followed the EV industry for a long time are used to being told that "X is fantasy type stuff", then when it happens just a couple years later watching the critics retreat to the next "Y is fantasy type stuff." Then when Y happens....

Until you find out that all politics is local, specially zoning, and the other 99% cry foul and just like that, getting a permit for off street parking is near impossible.

Translation: I'm not going to bother to try to find out what my city says about it, I'm just going to continue asserting that it's impossible.

How does someone install their own charger -not- on their own property???

You already said that it's not your own property, so you're contradicting yourself already. And if you're already walking several blocks, there may well already be a charger in your area. Not like either of us would know - me because I don't know exactly where you live, and you because you adamantly refuse to actually find out any specific details, and instead prefer just to assert "Impossible!" without even asking.