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Why FSD is still level 2, compare to MB's level 3 and hyundai/kia's level 3 next year?
- Thread starter ThatMike
- Start date
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Tesla is not behind. The systems are used in very different ways. Tesla chose to develop a system that can be used very broadly everywhere in a lot of different conditions. But one consequence of letting the system be used in so many situations, is that Tesla requires human supervision in order to limit risk. On the other hand, MB and Hyundai/Kai's L3 systems remove driver supervision but are much more restrictive in where and when they can be used. They can only be used at low speeds on the highway with a lead car. They can basically only be used in highway traffic jams. Since the risk is lower, the driver is not required to supervise. They are just different approaches. One is not necessarily better than the other.
I read a review from a car magazine where they took the MB out on an hour-long drive (this was in So. California) to test the AP system. Out of 60 minutes of driving, they were able to engage it for 10 minutes. There's a long list of restrictions to their AP system.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Their AP system doesn’t have nearly as many restrictions as their L3 system. The cars have two systems, a driver assist system and an L3 system.
as diplomat said, you can't really think of levels as being "better' necessarily. Technically someone could put out a level 3 system that only works on a single 100 yard long road in San Francisco and it still counts as being level 3. It would be entirely useless to 99.99999% of the population though.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
IMO limited domain L3 is much more than just dismissed as a gimmick. Some people have heavily stop and go commutes where low speed L3 that actually allows you to email / text gives them a good chunk of their commute time back. Or others may do a lot of super long trips where a highway L3 that can only go straight would be equally useful.
Ironically ever since getting a texting and driving ticket for sitting at a red light in my work parking lot (legally a public road), I would even love a 0mph L3 mode where all it does is engage when at a stop light and it warns you to take over when the light turns green.
Like definitely the capability of Tesla autopilot and FSD is awesome. Tesla’s basic AP still holds sharp curves better than any other solution I’ve tested. And of course nobody else has a car that attempts to navigate roundabouts by itself. But still, there are drivers not interested in those achievements especially if it has an unclear or unknown road to being able to go hands off or eyes off.
ZenRockGarden
Active Member
The restrictions on MB "full self driving" are almost comical.
It works: On selected pre-mapped highways. During the day. Under optimal lighting conditions. In good weather. At speeds under 50 MPH. With a car in the lane ahead to use as a reference. And the driver must be available to take over within 10 seconds at all times.
Yes, really.
So while Tesla struggles with the vastly harder problem of driving almost anywhere for an entire journey on all roads and conditions, MB has built... a fancy cruise control for stop and go traffic on major highways.
It works: On selected pre-mapped highways. During the day. Under optimal lighting conditions. In good weather. At speeds under 50 MPH. With a car in the lane ahead to use as a reference. And the driver must be available to take over within 10 seconds at all times.
Yes, really.
So while Tesla struggles with the vastly harder problem of driving almost anywhere for an entire journey on all roads and conditions, MB has built... a fancy cruise control for stop and go traffic on major highways.
Just to clarify, you can't use your cell phone at all while operating a motor vehicle in California. Even L3 like Mercedes (eyes off / hands off).
ZenRockGarden
Active Member
Yeah, the state laws are basically not yet ready for hands free driving. That'll take time to catch up.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Niche <> gimmick.
Also we shouldn't confuse niche for mainstream.
Back on topic - the question posed in this thread is ... hmmm ... how do I put it diplomatically .... is like comparing Amazon to a small website that offers a very limited range of goods.
Sure, regulations need to change in addition to technology advancing. I more mean in a hypothetical future as currently no L3 0mph system exists either.
I still disagree that these limited domains are niche. If anything I would argue today’s FSD Beta features are niche — how many customers actually want to be fully legally responsible for supervising an erratic robot driver that still routinely makes basic mistakes and attempts maneuvers it has low likelihood of succeeding like unprotected blind left turns? I would argue more people want a conditional L3 assist for traffic jams and red lights even if it requires handing back control with 6 seconds of notice. And in CA Mercedes does take legal responsibility while in said mode.
Just to clarify, you are aware that Drive Pilot has a pretty good L2 assist for the situations that fall outside this domain, and it gets regular software updates OTA, right? A lot of these talking points about Drive Pilot and Blue / Super cruise insinuate that you don’t get any features outside pre mapped zones.
Tam
Well-Known Member
You are correct that just adding L3 doesn't means there's no L2.
If a driver doesn't like the restrictions of L3, the L2 can be turned on to work just like the equivalent Tesla Navigon on Autopilot.
However, Ford/GM/Mercedes... L2 still require pre-mapping even when you don't operate with L3.
KArnold
Active Member
Does MB accept liability if there is an accident using their L3 system following their rules? This might be more about money than technology.
It seems Tesla could implement similar restrictions today if they wanted to. Just seems they don't have that business model.
It seems Tesla could implement similar restrictions today if they wanted to. Just seems they don't have that business model.
Tam
Well-Known Member
Tesla would not cover a summon accident that hits the garage in ideal conditions:
3MPH
Clear sky
Daylight...
It's not about money, it's about technology competency.
Current L3 is restricted to 40 MPH but once it's proven safe, the restriction will be loosen to 80 MPH.
That's technology competency, not money.
