Why has Tesla dumbed down the suspension tuning on a $100K sports sedan?

[calisnow]

Would love to see you do a little write-up here on the form comparing the handling and driving pleasure of these two icons.

 

[aus]

E92 M3 suspension with the active dampers was a dream. It didn't really give anything up to comfort due to the active damper programs even with (relatively) stiff springs.

It's all about the dampers. Everyone tries to upgrade springs because they don't know how dampers work.

edit - oh and I USED the s*** out of it on regular roads. One touch of the M button put the suspension in sport stiffness in something like 10 milliseconds. One of my most missed features in this upgrade. That and M stability control programs.

Don't know where you live, but you're lucky if you get to drive it hard on the street. There's NO WAY to do it safely and not get thrown in jail where I live.
And as good as the EDC dampers are on that car, I still prefer a good set of coilovers for track use. EDC is a great product, but BMW needs to catch up and use magnetorheological dampers in the Corvette, Ford GT350 and Fearri's.

I think the point he was trying to make was how much of that improved handling performance can you actually use on the the street since you can't take your car to it's limit generally ever.

For instance, I owned a 2006 M5 and then bought a 2010 M-Sport 535 which I proceeded to tune and put down something like 470hp from the crank. The M5 was the better car still, no doubt and on a road course it would have beat the 535 with little fuss however on the street neither car came close to approaching it's limits in terms of handling which meant that in the real world, the 535 could do 99% of what the M5 could because the M5 wasn't in a position to take advantage of it's better components. Couple that with the significantly better low end power of the twin turbo 535 and the 535 ended up being a better street car in almost every way.

I agree completely. Our tuned 335 was much better as a daily driver than my M3. Some people equate stiffer/firmer ride as better handling, and that's true to some extent, but not all the time. And most Tesla owners will NOT be happy with the stiffer ride on a daily basis.

...+ wasn't an option ....:crying:
staggered RE71Rs make a P pretty close to a + besides the tilt
I'll challenge anyone in a stock E92 M3 in autocross. P85 is a bit quicker + better balanced to put down power
How much do +'s lean compared to this pic? I only got to drive a + in mostly wet and couldn't get a feel of the stiffness difference.
View attachment 109470

can I put a + sway bar on a P without other minor changes? if anyone knows

Autocrossing an MS!! Well done sir!!
What size wheels/tires are you using? Those RE71 are suppose to stick like fly paper.
.

 

[AWDtsla]

Don't know where you live, but you're lucky if you get to drive it hard on the street. There's NO WAY to do it safely and not get thrown in jail where I live.

I only got up to "warning" over 5 years. The brakes saved me from more tickets than the engine could try for. It is a torqueless wonder compared to the P90D. Reminds me, I do miss those brakes too. Cross-drilled floating rotors.

 

[mkspeedr]

I really enjoy the P85D handling. It is a good balance for an everyday commuter. I would only consider handling improvements if it does not impact my nice quiet ride in the morning.

Usually track focused cars are horrible street cars.

 

[Mike K]

I agree completely. Our tuned 335 was much better as a daily driver than my M3. Some people equate stiffer/firmer ride as better handling, and that's true to some extent, but not all the time. And most Tesla owners will NOT be happy with the stiffer ride on a daily basis.

Yes, people seem to equate a stiffer ride and quick steering turn-in with a better overall handling car. Having just returned the loaner P85+ I can pretty confidently say that with the + you're giving up a notable amount of ride comfort for a negligible improvement in handling, much of which is likely just a result of the larger wheels/ tires anyhow.

There are sport suspension cars that do it well. BMW does (or did) a very good sport suspension car. The + does not do it well. You give up way too much for way too little. My opinion of course, and we all know what those are like.

 

[HankLloydRight]

nuch of which is likely just a result of the larger wheels/ tires anyhow.
M.

When comparing other Model Ss to the +, I hope most people are at least driving then with stock 8.5x21" rims. The only difference the + gives you are rear tires that are just 3/4" wider on each side and 9x21" rims. That's it.

I swapped out my rear rims for stock 8.5" rims so I could buy cheaper matching 245mm tires and rotate them front to back and noticed zero change in handling.

 

[gnelson]

I really enjoy the P85D handling. It is a good balance for an everyday commuter. I would only consider handling improvements if it does not impact my nice quiet ride in the morning.

Usually track focused cars are horrible street cars.

Your ride isn't all that quiet with the whine from the front drive train. My P85+ is much quieter than a "D".

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

Autocrossing an MS!! Well done sir!!
What size wheels/tires are you using? Those RE71 are suppose to stick like fly paper.
.

Running on 245/275 19"s, pretty sure they get at least 10% more cornering grip than PSS's - (check my signature link for some more)
racing against '14 CTS-V and M3 in F Street and smoking them. CtSV driver is from a racing family and has raced his whole life. Me - racing just in the S so can't really personally compare car handling feel to the S besides seeing times and riding along with them. Everything feels faster and crazier when you are a passenger!
I don't think there as a better F street car than the S, might be biased but I doubt I am the best racer and still managed to get 3rd in PAX in the last Enduro I did (5 lap Auto X) against many very serious racers...I believe Randy Grub (Leno Tank car artist) and 1 other beat me.

 

[MuppetOwl]

Your ride isn't all that quiet with the whine from the front drive train. My P85+ is much quieter than a "D".

I never hear the front engine when not using range mode. The car is much more silent since it has better soundproofing than the older cars but that is the same for a new P85 build from around September 2014.

4wd is the most important feature on a car for me and will never buy a car without it Just sad with a powerfull car without grip and useless i the winter where I live.

 

[AWDtsla]

I never hear the front engine when not using range mode. The car is much more silent since it has better soundproofing than the older cars but that is the same for a new P85 build from around September 2014.

I can't be the only one that noticed. Drive logic changed in the 7.1 update. Now there is whine all the time, but a slightly different whine.

 

[gnelson]

I never hear the front engine when not using range mode. The car is much more silent since it has better soundproofing than the older cars but that is the same for a new P85 build from around September 2014.

4wd is the most important feature on a car for me and will never buy a car without it Just sad with a powerfull car without grip and useless i the winter where I live.

You definitely need AWD in Norway. My point was the front drive train noise is greater than the tire noise with the 21 in Michelin Pilot Sport 2 tires. The "D" is the only way to go if you drive on ice or snow.

 

[calisnow]

When comparing other Model Ss to the +, I hope most people are at least driving then with stock 8.5x21" rims. The only difference the + gives you are rear tires that are just 3/4" wider on each side and 9x21" rims. That's it.

I thought the "+" also gave you stiffer suspension bushings, different sway bars, higher spring rates and also firmer shock valving.

 

[AWDtsla]

When comparing other Model Ss to the +, I hope most people are at least driving then with stock 8.5x21" rims. The only difference the + gives you are rear tires that are just 3/4" wider on each side and 9x21" rims. That's it.

I swapped out my rear rims for stock 8.5" rims so I could buy cheaper matching 245mm tires and rotate them front to back and noticed zero change in handling.

I don't believe you'll actually achieve the 3/4" improvement in contact patch, since the tire is mounted on a wheel that's too narrow. Though someone will have to actually measure to find out.

 

[HankLloydRight]

I thought the "+" also gave you stiffer suspension bushings, different sway bars, higher spring rates and also firmer shock valving.

Right, I was just talking about the differences in wheels/tires, not the entire package.

I don't believe you'll actually achieve the 3/4" improvement in contact patch, since the tire is mounted on a wheel that's too narrow. Though someone will have to actually measure to find out.

Huh? The 265s are mounted on 9" rims. The 245s are mounted on 8.5" rims.

The additional 3/4" is just the increased width of the tire spec, I wasn't really even talking about contact patch, as that is also a function of car weight and tire pressure.

 

[AWDtsla]

Huh? The 265s are mounted on 9" rims. The 245s are mounted on 8.5" rims.

The additional 3/4" is just the increased width of the tire spec, I wasn't really even talking about contact patch, as that is also a function of car weight and tire pressure.

My point is if you increase the rim by 0.5" and the tire spec by 0.75", you're not getting 0.75" more useful tire. You could in fact mount the same 245 tire on the 9" and get more contact patch.

 

[HankLloydRight]

My point is if you increase the rim by 0.5" and the tire spec by 0.75", you're not getting 0.75" more useful tire. You could in fact mount the same 245 tire on the 9" and get more contact patch.

I don't think it's that simple either, certainly not with 1/4" differences. Contact patch has a lot more to do with tire pressure and total load, as well as sidewall strength than a .25" difference between wheels and rims. Each tire has a range or rims that it can mount on, I don't think the "usable" contact patch changes in a linear fashion as you assert.

Besides, my original argument was the opposite -- that changing from 265s on 9x21 to 245s on 8.5x21 had no noticeable difference in handling. So your beef is with Tesla who prescribed the larger rear wheels and tires for better handling.

 

[CHG-ON]

+1, Amped!

The P85+ suspension is amazing and makes the car handle like it weighs half. There is no better way to make a 4,600 lb car feel like a much smaller, nimbler and more maneuverable car than by giving it the + suspension bits. Unfortunately, I don't like where Tesla is going. The only practical difference between a P90DL and a 85D is acceleration. Seems like there should be more for the huge difference in price.

 

[ifung90]

Sorry a question that I wanted to find out for a long time.

So my P85D is a RHD model so the build date is around August 2015 (ordered April 2015) and delivered on October 2015.

However I have the staggered 245/265 Michelin PS2 wheel set up with the 21x8.5 front and 21x9 rear.

Does this staggered wheel means I also get the uprated shock valving and bigger sway bars as other OPs have stated from a pre-April build date?

My MS does feel significantly stiffer than the 85D that my aunt has (delivered on the same batch).

 

[HankLloydRight]

It might be listed in your MVPA, look for "Performance Plus" or option code PX01. But I'd guess if you have the staggered wheels, they you most likely have the + suspension.

 

[calisnow]

The only way to settle this is to drive both cars for a couple days. Fortunately for me there are two P85+ and several variations of the D models for rent in L.A. on Turo.com. I'll book two cars for several days and report back. So many conflicting reports here I don't know what to think.