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Why I am losing faith in Tesla’s Autopilot (Autosteer)

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I absolutely love my Model 3. I have had it for just over 3 years now and enjoyed driving every mile of the 42,000 miles that I have clocked till today. Most of the mileage has been on the highway and the remainder was miles that I racked up while commuting for work before the pandemic. When I bought it in 2019, I was primarily using it for the daily 60-mile round trip commute for work during the week. I had started using autopilot right away and loved the fact that I could relax a bit during my daily commute to work. My Model 3 was a replacement for my 2005 Toyota Prius and the difference between the two is significant. This summer, I drove over 8,000 miles across 14 states in my Model 3 - I’m as familiar with it and its autopilot system as anyone else.

Using autopilot for my commute became a ritual and I became very accustomed to it – understanding its weaknesses as well as its strengths. I became so accustomed to it, that whenever I was traveling away from home without my Model 3, I would find it strange to drive any other car, especially on highways. Autopilot allowed me to relax a bit more while driving and take more of a managerial role of the car's systems rather than actively driving it. It helped to reduce my overall fatigue during most drives. This was helpful especially in places like the Bay Area where there is heavy traffic, and you have to constantly be aware of changes in speed and lane changes of vehicles around you.

I experienced the real impact of autopilot when I took my first long road trip with my partner from San Jose to Seattle. This was in early 2020 when work from home had just taken off due to the pandemic and flying to places was out of the question. Several weeks later, we decided to spend some time in Colorado to take advantage of the remote work situation, so we drove to Boulder from Seattle via Yellowstone National Park. As we headed back to San Jose later that year, we had driven over 5,000 miles and had primarily used Tesla’s massive supercharging network. We wouldn’t have been able to do the trip without it. But the real game changer for us was autopilot. I had driven other vehicles with ‘lane-assist’ systems such as those in Toyota and other manufacturers, but nothing came close to Tesla’s autopilot. The ability of the car to stay within the lanes on a highway was impeccable even in times of inclement weather such as heavy rain or snow. We were very impressed with the overall system. There were times when autopilot got confused with lanes or times when we experienced phantom braking – instances when the car would engage the brakes even when there was no need to do so. These were a small fraction of instances and very soon I could predict when I would need to take over from autopilot when there was any complexity in the lane markings. But overall, it was a fantastic system that I found hard to drive without on any road trip or long commute thereafter.

Fast forward to 2022 to a couple of months ago in October. My father flew in from overseas to take a 26-day road trip with me across 7 states starting from California and ending in Wyoming. I was excited to take him in my Model 3 – for him to experience an electric vehicle, seamless supercharging across Tesla’s vast network, and of course autopilot. My dad being a man of precision is not easy to impress and I was eager to know his impression of a Tesla. When he finally decided to take over the wheel from me in Nevada, he was thrilled by the torque and power delivered by the Model 3. I watched him enjoy overtaking slower vehicles as I took videos of him from the passenger seat. I did 90% of the driving of the 3,500+ miles that we covered over 26 days. But I also relied on a key system for half the trip – autopilot. I say half because sometime in late September and early October, I updated the software for the vehicle to the latest version. I initially thought of waiting to complete our trip, but the software update notification popup became annoying, and I finally decided to just complete the update. Later I realized that I had made a big mistake.

On one of our drives, we experienced 4 phantom braking events within 30 minutes. Not only was I embarrassed, but I was also concerned about our safety. A vehicle behind us could have easily slammed into us when our vehicle braked suddenly without any reason to the outside observer. I had to switch off autopilot and drive the vehicle myself. This was such a shame since we could not have been on a straighter road, and it was so monotonous to have to steer as well as press the accelerator pedal. During the remainder of the drive, I kept wondering why this was happening. Was it the road? It had not happened at this frequency for most of our trip so why was this happening now. Then it hit me – it was the most recent software update. Tesla has started transitioning vehicles from its radar + Tesla Vision based autopilot to Tesla Vision only. I felt so silly for choosing to update my vehicle’s software. Even though I knew I had no way of knowing.

This was not the end though. For the remainder of the trip, I experienced multiple phantom braking events. The last straw was when I was driving back home to California from Salt Lake City and experienced such harsh phantom braking that my vehicle dropped in speed by 20 miles per hour within seconds. That was it. I decided to stop using autopilot and stuck to traffic-aware cruise control only. Little did I realize that traffic-aware cruise control is also using Tesla vision. So, I experienced the same exact harsh braking again while just using cruise control! I was so disappointed and so frustrated. I just decided to drive manually altogether. I realized that my 2005 Prius’ (or even my 98 Civic) classic cruise control would have been better than today’s updated version of autopilot.

To state the obvious - In software production, every update should either make a system safer or retain its current level of safety, and then not regress in overall functionality. Unfortunately, I felt less safe with today’s version of autopilot and have decided to not use it until Tesla has addressed this issue thoroughly. It feels very strange to not use autopilot on drives and I definitely feel its absence. The Model 3 has been one of the best purchases I have ever made in my life – I just hope that Tesla will remedy this soon (re-enable radar) and continue to deliver state-of-the-art systems going forward. The competition in the electric vehicle space as well as driver assist systems is about to get fierce.
 
I am clinging to what I believe is the last radar based one, but that in itself is an admission that the whole OTA approach along with Tesla's use of it is currently a dead end for me.
You and me both. I have a radar y without the radar removing update. Autosteer is near perfect on my y, not really usable on my vision x but has become a lot better on fsd beta but still not to radar y levels!
 
I prefer the vision only AP. VOAP fixed the issues with phantom braking with overhead obstructions.

I only get phantom braking with VOAP when traveling 70+ mph on few-lane open roads with no cars nearby (within 120m or so) in front.

But then again, I have FSDb 10.69.3.1, and I'm not sure if Tesla is using a different VOAP software vs. production.
 
Because they had inventory a year ago, but ran out and couldn't get new supplies sufficient to produce the orders they had on the books for q3 and q4.
And why would they be the only ones affected? OEMs like Tesla who kept orders throughout the pandemic remained in the queue unlike those that cancelled due to predicted low demand. That was basically the whole essence of why Tesla could still make cars at volume during shortages. Do you have evidence or believe that suppliers have deprioritized Tesla now, turning down their orders and only shipping to other OEMs? That seems like a lot of conspiracy theory versus just "Elon wants vision only faster so delete them so the engineers will sweat and do the work faster", a strategy for which there is ample historical evidence.
 
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And why would they be the only ones affected? OEMs like Tesla who kept orders throughout the pandemic remained in the queue unlike those that cancelled due to predicted low demand. That was basically the whole essence of why Tesla could still make cars at volume during shortages. Do you have evidence or believe that suppliers have deprioritized Tesla now, turning down their orders and only shipping to other OEMs? That seems like a lot of conspiracy theory versus just "Elon wants vision only faster so delete them so the engineers will sweat and do the work faster", a strategy for which there is ample historical evidence.
Companies the size of car mfgs don't move as fast as you think they do. They are planning months, sometimes years, in advance. Early 2022, Tesla had enough USS to produce their cars, but saw the chip shortage taking a toll on the industry. Competitors were stopping USS installation and disabling parking assist for many of their lines. Tesla, like others, were working with vendors to aquire supply. No one knows/knew when the shortage would end, so Tesla made the decision to remove USS months ago. The AI division probably told management they could replicate USS functions with vision, which made the decision to remove USS easy.

You can think any sinister motive you'd like, but this is a basic business decision that any company has to make.

Is the shortage over? Let's say it is now. Tesla has made their decision and is continuing down the vision route. You can nash your teeth and rend your clothes, but it doesn't change the business decision Tesla made based on market forces.
 
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Companies the size of car mfgs don't move as fast as you think they do. They are planning months, sometimes years, in advance. Early 2022, Tesla had enough USS to produce their cars, but saw the chip shortage taking a toll on the industry. Competitors were stopping USS installation and disabling parking assist for many of their lines. Tesla, like others, were working with vendors to aquire supply. No one knows/knew when the shortage would end, so Tesla made the decision to remove USS months ago. The AI division probably told management they could replicate USS functions with vision, which made the decision to remove USS easy.

You can think any sinister motive you'd like, but this is a basic business decision that any company has to make.

Is the shortage over? Let's say it is now. Tesla has made their decision and is continuing down the vision route. You can nash your teeth and rend your clothes, but it doesn't change the business decision Tesla made based on market forces.
I'm not saying that hardware being removed in advance of anticipated capability isn't a "Business Decision" but that it's not based on lack of hardware (even months ago), and is part of a pattern of customer hostile actions.
 
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I prefer the vision only AP. VOAP fixed the issues with phantom braking with overhead obstructions.

I only get phantom braking with VOAP when traveling 70+ mph on few-lane open roads with no cars nearby (within 120m or so) in front.

But then again, I have FSDb 10.69.3.1, and I'm not sure if Tesla is using a different VOAP software vs. production.
That is stupid comment. How the USS affect the phantom breaking with overhead obstruction!?!?

They just tweaked the vision code

All other manufacturers (read: ALL) have uss, vision and radar their implementations just work. And work better
 
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Have you considered the possibility that you have a hardware issue? Perhaps a bad camera?
This is definitely not a hardware issue. It was so obvious that it was right after I updated the software and that specific update was transitioning my car off radar (which I didn't know until later). If you do a search online (TeslaMotorsClub, Reddit) you will see that many people have faced this same issue. It happens on long stretches of highway where: 1) No cars in front of you and 2) Direct Sun; which is a shame because that is when autopilot can be most useful - on roadtrips.
 
Sorry I'm talking about vision only, not ultrasonic sensors.

And no, I don't think other mfgs are better than AP
Oh dude, you are so wrong.. :)))
Firstly VOAP is worse than VOAP + radar. Because radar is kike 20+ years in use and works perfectly to hold the distance between you and next car. Camera VOAP tries to calculate and sometime it causes gap to fluctuate.. but radar does not care if sun is shining into it or it had a bird poop on it. it just works.
Regarding emergency breaking due to overhead obstacle (bridge i.e.) - it's pure fault of the code for VOAP as car shits itself once it thinks it sees something. It is never the case for any radar. Had bmw 330e with radar - it had 0 emergency brakes in 2 years. and here is AP (at 54th second)


what was the fokin reason for it to brake?!

Now regarding other manufacturers:
Same BMW had the "autopilot equivalent" as "driver assistant plus" on the one I had G20 model, 2019). It did exactly the same: actively keeping you in the middle of the lane, keeping distance and speed. All the same stuff AP does.
However, there were 4 major advantages over Tesla's implementation (not mentioning radar):
1) if you changed lane, it re-enabled itself automatically. you dot have to enable/re-enable every time you change lanes. it works much better even than EAP for this case.
2) if you were overtaking someone on motorway while on cruise control, it would accelerate to set cruise speed automatically BEFORE switching the lane. So if you were held back by someone driving 10 miles below speed limit, you wouldn't jump into the outside lane at that slow speed and only then try to accelerate. This is actually dangerous in Tesla's implementation, as you jump into outside line at like 60 mph while cars behind you in that lane are 70-75 or more. then it takes 15 seconds to reach 70...
3) you do not have to apply constant torque to steering wheel as is touch sensitive and it feels your hands. so you do not have to wiggle it all the time, otherwise you get penalized
4) most importantly it never penalizes you with disabling AP for the rest of the drive. WTF is this bull crap? It's my car. Why it penalizes me? Why other manufacturers don't while tesla just takes stupid decisions?
 
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Now regarding other manufacturers:
Same BMW had the "autopilot equivalent" as "driver assistant plus" on the one I had G20 model, 2019). It did exactly the same: actively keeping you in the middle of the lane, keeping distance and speed. All the same stuff AP does.

Sure, show us videos of BMW dealing with merging cars, merging onto a highway, offsetting within the lane for large trucks, or lane keeping on curvy mountain road.

As for your video of PB 5 months ago, the difference between AP and other mfgs is that Tesla is constantly improving, whereas other mfgs don't have OTA updates..........
 
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Sure, show us videos of BMW dealing with merging cars, merging onto a highway, offsetting within the lane for large trucks, or lane keeping on curvy mountain road.

As for your video of PB 5 months ago, the difference between AP and other mfgs is that Tesla is constantly improving, whereas other mfgs don't have OTA updates..........
Something like this?


How does BMW dealing with merging cars differs from Tesla AP? It's basically the same stuff - it is just TACC and Lane Assist but shittier implementation. I understand you believe that tesla did here something magical - it didn't. it's nothing super duper on basic AP level. Maybe FSD is better - but it is not available in Europe and most probably not gonna be available for next 5 years... at least

And regarding the OTA updates - please... Tesla is not the only one who do it - almost all decent manufacturers do it. As the same example - BMW (because it was the one I had since 2019 to 2021) just updated one day, and suddenly Android Auto became an option. It was updated quite well, every couple of months. Only thing, it did not break UI with every second update. Oh, it also used to show fuel prices in the petrol station on the sat nav as well.

And yes, sometimes tesla improves. It took them somewhat 3 years to fix auto high beam to "bearable level" - the feature my Ford Mondeo (aka ford Fusion in US) had working perfectly since 2015?
The PB Still happens. maybe on a bit rarer occasion but it happens. once in a while car get scared of the air around it shats itself and slams brakes.
 
Where? Show us some of them
I just told you, ffs.

BMW updated car in 2020 and successfully added Andoid Auto - all OTA. Before that car had Apple car play or whatever it is called only. They update maps and software OTA these days..
Do you think Tesla is the only connected car?! :D wakey wakey

It looks something like this in BMW, Kia, VW, ford, Hyunday, etc. you name it:

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1671465428218.png


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1671465712708.png
 
Where? Show us some of them

Which Automakers Offer OTA Updates?​

Tesla was the first automaker to roll out over-the-air capabilities with the launch of the Model S in 2012. After years of skepticism from the competition, here are the other OEMs that have announced or commenced OTA updates in their vehicles:

AutomakerOTA-Upgraded Components
AudiNavigation
BMWInfotainment, optional features
FordADAS, several other components
General MotorsNearly every vehicle component on EVs, major components on combustion vehicles
HondaInfotainment
HyundaiInfotainment, voice assistance
Jaguar/Land RoverInfotainment, charging capabilities
LucidNearly every vehicle component and system
Mercedes-BenzInfotainment, navigation
NissanInfotainment
PolestarNearly every vehicle component and system
PorscheLimited functions
RivianNearly every vehicle component and system
Stellantis (FCA)Infotainment
TeslaNearly every vehicle component and system
ToyotaInfotainment
VolkswagenSeveral vehicle components and systems on EVs
VolvoNearly every vehicle component and system
 

Which Automakers Offer OTA Updates?​

Tesla was the first automaker to roll out over-the-air capabilities with the launch of the Model S in 2012. After years of skepticism from the competition, here are the other OEMs that have announced or commenced OTA updates in their vehicles:

AutomakerOTA-Upgraded Components
AudiNavigation
BMWInfotainment, optional features
FordADAS, several other components
General MotorsNearly every vehicle component on EVs, major components on combustion vehicles
HondaInfotainment
HyundaiInfotainment, voice assistance
Jaguar/Land RoverInfotainment, charging capabilities
LucidNearly every vehicle component and system
Mercedes-BenzInfotainment, navigation
NissanInfotainment
PolestarNearly every vehicle component and system
PorscheLimited functions
RivianNearly every vehicle component and system
Stellantis (FCA)Infotainment
TeslaNearly every vehicle component and system
ToyotaInfotainment
VolkswagenSeveral vehicle components and systems on EVs
VolvoNearly every vehicle component and system
and it's quite understandable - before that you had to go to service centre to get the updates. They used to charge for maps... now it's kinda free-ish and maps being updated, etc.

I mean the AP itself was a novelty in 2015 or so. But now - everyone has it as well. Some of them have it at basic package, some have it in additional package. but it's there. and as mentioned - implementation is even better is almost all cases.
 
I will say this though. While other mfgs have OTA, they may not use it frequently. I had a Chevy Bolt for 5 years and it got one (1) OTA update in the entire 5 years, for infotainment only, and it didn't even solve the crashing problem I had.
That's one of the problems with having a dealer network. It's like pulling teeth getting an update.
 
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Which Automakers Offer OTA Updates?​

Tesla was the first automaker to roll out over-the-air capabilities with the launch of the Model S in 2012. After years of skepticism from the competition, here are the other OEMs that have announced or commenced OTA updates in their vehicles:

AutomakerOTA-Upgraded Components
AudiNavigation
BMWInfotainment, optional features
FordADAS, several other components
General MotorsNearly every vehicle component on EVs, major components on combustion vehicles
HondaInfotainment
HyundaiInfotainment, voice assistance
Jaguar/Land RoverInfotainment, charging capabilities
LucidNearly every vehicle component and system
Mercedes-BenzInfotainment, navigation
NissanInfotainment
PolestarNearly every vehicle component and system
PorscheLimited functions
RivianNearly every vehicle component and system
Stellantis (FCA)Infotainment
TeslaNearly every vehicle component and system
ToyotaInfotainment
VolkswagenSeveral vehicle components and systems on EVs
VolvoNearly every vehicle component and system

Thanks for the list, but I think that's an aspirational list. For almost all mfgs, OTA updates only apply to the infotainment systems. I've never heard of any other mfg improving their ADAS through OTA updates (not saying they won't do it in the future).

Then there's also this article, 2023 for full GM OTA: