Why I gave up and bought a Prius Prime

[SpiceWare]

BATTERY production constrained. One more reason the smaller battery should have shipped first.

Wasn't that battery PACK constrained (as opposed to 2170)? If you can only build X packs a week you'd want to build the one that earns the most profit.

 

[mattack4000]

There is always a leaf or bolt for less money. Everything isn’t about you

Maybe. Does it help tesla more to sell more 9k options right now and lose some sales to middle class homes, or does it help them more to get more teslas into more middle class homes sooner?

 

[broncobilly]

I bought into, and still believe in, the promise of a Tesla for the masses. And me, I'm the masses. I really, really want an electric car. A 35k Tesla is just (barely) within reason for my finances. The other electrics don't appeal like a Tesla. Not at all.

But then my '04 Prius, best car I've ever owned, started calling for maintenance I wasn't willing to invest in at 172k.

And the math, it just doesn't lie. The farther away the ever-receding Tesla delivery date, the less rebate there will be. Put with that the fact that, after rebates and Toyota's aggressive moves to get rid of 2017 cars, the cost of my new Prius Prime got down to $16k. So we're talking probably $10-15k less than the M3. That is one major chunk of change to a lot of people, including me.

The EV mode range of the Prime is nothing major. But the overall mileage with regular charging becomes ridiculously high. It became really hard to justify waiting around for a Tesla. $10-15k will buy an awful lot of other things. Heck, maybe I'll finally get that vintage Gretsch guitar AND a car.

Thing is, the Prius Prime, which clearly has Tesla nods all over the place, is a really great car. It's some stiff competition for the ecology-minded buyer without a trust fund. Tesla is going to have more competition than it thinks.

I hope, like crazy, that by the time I'm ready to relinquish the Prius Prime, there's a Tesla that fits my needs and my budget. Because I'll still be rooting for it, and hoping there's one with my name on it. And I hope all of you who are waiting are rewarded in a big way when you finally get an M3. I'll be jealous.

 

[broncobilly]

I went to the Denver Auto show last week as I was about to give up. I was really going to go find something else, even if it was a 2017 in hopes that the price would be right.

The next day, I GOT THE MESSAGE! Not sure how the timing came like that, but decided to go for it.

Hope I did not make a mistake.

 

[slipnslider]

There is always a leaf or bolt for less money. Everything isn’t about you

My concern isn't about me. It's about the future of the company. My question was - is it better for the future of the company to sell more expensive options to rich customers, or put more inexpensive teslas in middle class homes?

 

[slipnslider]

They are not losing any sales. Every car is sold before it is produced and they are incapable of producing more.
Your argument is simply flawed.

What you are really saying is that selling to Jim has some extra value over selling to Joe, even if Jim spends less. That is a difficult argument to take seriously on the best of days and is most certainly not going to sway anybody except Jim while Tesla is avoiding a cash crunch.

They ARE losing sales. I know one guy personally who got out of line when he realized he wouldn't be able to get a 35k version with the full tax credit. That's a lost sale. I've heard other stories like his in various forums.

 

[SageBrush]

They ARE losing sales. I know one guy personally who got out of line when he realized he wouldn't be able to get a 35k version with the full tax credit. That's a lost sale. I've heard other stories like his in various forums.

It is NOT a lost sale, because the car your friend did not buy was snapped up by someone else before it was even built.

I sold a car a few months ago for $10k.
Now imagine if you came along and tried to convince me I should have sold the car to you for $9k to not lose a sale.

 

[MP3Mike]

Wasn't that battery PACK constrained (as opposed to 2170)? If you can only build X packs a week you'd want to build the one that earns the most profit.

I think it has been both. People have been told that Powerwall deliveries are delayed because all of the cells are being used for the Model 3 and Powerpacks.

 

[slipnslider]

It is NOT a lost sale, because the car your friend did not buy was snapped up by someone else before it was even built.

I sold a car a few months ago for $10k.
Now imagine if you came along and tried to convince me I should have sold the car to you for $9k to not lose a sale.

Yes it is. Because THAT car might have been taken, but now another one down the line won't be. Everyone who was in line and gets out of line is a lost sale. It's not complicated.

 

[SageBrush]

Because THAT car might have been taken, but now another one down the line won't be.

Which brings us back to the point you cannot grasp: Model 3 is production constrained. By the time it is not, your starting assumptions are longer valid.

 

[Rutherford]

I bought into, and still believe in, the promise of a Tesla for the masses. And me, I'm the masses. I really, really want an electric car. A 35k Tesla is just (barely) within reason for my finances. The other electrics don't appeal like a Tesla. Not at all.

But then my '04 Prius, best car I've ever owned, started calling for maintenance I wasn't willing to invest in at 172k.

And the math, it just doesn't lie. The farther away the ever-receding Tesla delivery date, the less rebate there will be. Put with that the fact that, after rebates and Toyota's aggressive moves to get rid of 2017 cars, the cost of my new Prius Prime got down to $16k. So we're talking probably $10-15k less than the M3. That is one major chunk of change to a lot of people, including me.

The EV mode range of the Prime is nothing major. But the overall mileage with regular charging becomes ridiculously high. It became really hard to justify waiting around for a Tesla. $10-15k will buy an awful lot of other things. Heck, maybe I'll finally get that vintage Gretsch guitar AND a car.

Thing is, the Prius Prime, which clearly has Tesla nods all over the place, is a really great car. It's some stiff competition for the ecology-minded buyer without a trust fund. Tesla is going to have more competition than it thinks.

I hope, like crazy, that by the time I'm ready to relinquish the Prius Prime, there's a Tesla that fits my needs and my budget. Because I'll still be rooting for it, and hoping there's one with my name on it. And I hope all of you who are waiting are rewarded in a big way when you finally get an M3. I'll be jealous.

I had a 2006 Prius which I loved. Then a 2011 Tesla Roadster which I loved. But I don't want to wait for a Model 3 and bought a Bolt.

 

[MIT_S60]

[...]The Volt was on the road with lithium batteries batteries and a 149 hp electric motor back when the Prius was still using NiMH and had no PHEV variant, and I believe a new, larger 80hp electric motor. When the PHEV variant was released, it was a joke to appease CARB. 6 miles electric range if you crept along at bicycle speeds. Still NiMH. Toyota originally lied about the Prius power output and had to change it. Not sure if they are still lying. They also mislead folk by gaming the EPA system with their PHEVs. By completing only the loops they can complete under pure EV power and listing that as their MPGe EV mode, they can inflate their economy.[...]

Actually, the 2012-2015 Prius Plug-in had a lithium battery, not NiMH. And the 6 miles range was from the portion of the EPA cycle where the engine would turn on due to acceleration; it actually had an 11 mile range. It might have been a terrible plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, but it was an excellent hybrid and a great starter car as an introduction to the EV world at the time.

I won't shy away from it: I bought mine back at the end of 2013 solely for the carpool stickers (and to save money on gas). I considered the Volt, but my commute was long enough that I couldn't make it one way on EV range, didn't have access to charging at work, didn't want to pay premium gas, and wanted a 5th seat (plus the Prius fit up to 10 foot surfboards in a surf bag inside the car). Eventually my family added a Nissan Leaf, and then later on I traded the Leaf for my Model S, but we kept the Prius Plug-in. It's an excellent vehicle for what it does, and I can park it more comfortably in more places than my Tesla since I don't care about it getting door dings or keyed.

 

[seattlite2004]

I had a 2006 Prius which I loved. Then a 2011 Tesla Roadster which I loved. But I don't want to wait for a Model 3 and bought a Bolt.

That Roadster should've put you in the front of the line...no? How you liking that Bolt....2018?

 

[Depeche Mode]

I bought into, and still believe in, the promise of a Tesla for the masses. And me, I'm the masses. I really, really want an electric car. A 35k Tesla is just (barely) within reason for my finances. The other electrics don't appeal like a Tesla. Not at all.

But then my '04 Prius, best car I've ever owned, started calling for maintenance I wasn't willing to invest in at 172k.

And the math, it just doesn't lie. The farther away the ever-receding Tesla delivery date, the less rebate there will be. Put with that the fact that, after rebates and Toyota's aggressive moves to get rid of 2017 cars, the cost of my new Prius Prime got down to $16k. So we're talking probably $10-15k less than the M3. That is one major chunk of change to a lot of people, including me.

The EV mode range of the Prime is nothing major. But the overall mileage with regular charging becomes ridiculously high. It became really hard to justify waiting around for a Tesla. $10-15k will buy an awful lot of other things. Heck, maybe I'll finally get that vintage Gretsch guitar AND a car.

Thing is, the Prius Prime, which clearly has Tesla nods all over the place, is a really great car. It's some stiff competition for the ecology-minded buyer without a trust fund. Tesla is going to have more competition than it thinks.

I hope, like crazy, that by the time I'm ready to relinquish the Prius Prime, there's a Tesla that fits my needs and my budget. Because I'll still be rooting for it, and hoping there's one with my name on it. And I hope all of you who are waiting are rewarded in a big way when you finally get an M3. I'll be jealous.

AHAHAH! is just the answer I can give following that...

Bad long term decision... You had something offered to you on a silver plate and you chose the least interesting option? ok... next...

 

[McRat]

Actually, the 2012-2015 Prius Plug-in had a lithium battery, not NiMH. And the 6 miles range was from the portion of the EPA cycle where the engine would turn on due to acceleration; it actually had an 11 mile range. It might have been a terrible plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, but it was an excellent hybrid and a great starter car as an introduction to the EV world at the time.

I won't shy away from it: I bought mine back at the end of 2013 solely for the carpool stickers (and to save money on gas). I considered the Volt, but my commute was long enough that I couldn't make it one way on EV range, didn't have access to charging at work, didn't want to pay premium gas, and wanted a 5th seat (plus the Prius fit up to 10 foot surfboards in a surf bag inside the car). Eventually my family added a Nissan Leaf, and then later on I traded the Leaf for my Model S, but we kept the Prius Plug-in. It's an excellent vehicle for what it does, and I can park it more comfortably in more places than my Tesla since I don't care about it getting door dings or keyed.

You are right. I should have looked that up. Yes, the PiP had a 4.4kWh lithium battery. I knew Toyota was using NiMH in their hybrids, and when they released the Prime they said something like, "We now have superior lithium technology in the Prime" or something to that effect, which lead me to think lithium was new for the Prime. I assumed wrong.

But I also found their dirty laundry while looking that up. They said the 2012 PiP had 134 HP and weighed 3130 lb. This is 23.4 lb per hp, or more power per pound than the Volt, yet slower. In fact, when Toyota increased the weight, and lowered the power to 121 HP, the car became a hair quicker than the old PiP. Toyota upped the actual HP, and reduced the advertised HP for the Prime, and it's still questionable. Or the Volt has more power than advertised.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

It is NOT a lost sale, because the car your friend did not buy was snapped up by someone else before it was even built.

I sold a car a few months ago for $10k.
Now imagine if you came along and tried to convince me I should have sold the car to you for $9k to not lose a sale.

It might be a lost sale. Only time will tell. There are some reservation holders who will only order if they get the full or partial tax credit, and the more cars Tesla can crank out that recieve a full or partial tax credit, the more of those sales they'll make overall. At the same time, I agree that there are so many people waiting for the 3, Tesla will just sell it to the next person in line.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

You are right. I should have looked that up. Yes, the PiP had a 4.4kWh lithium battery. I knew Toyota was using NiMH in their hybrids, and when they released the Prime they said something like, "We now have superior lithium technology in the Prime" or something to that effect, which lead me to think lithium was new for the Prime. I assumed wrong.

But I also found their dirty laundry while looking that up. They said the 2012 PiP had 134 HP and weighed 3130 lb. This is 23.4 lb per hp, or more power per pound than the Volt, yet slower. In fact, when Toyota increased the weight, and lowered the power to 121 HP, the car became a hair quicker than the old PiP. Toyota upped the actual HP, and reduced the advertised HP for the Prime, and it's still questionable. Or the Volt has more power than advertised.

I wouldn't conflate peak system power with acceleration. A Tesla will walk all over other cars with higher power to weight ratio because they have more torque, aka from usable power at a given speed. The same applies to the Volt compared to the Prius. The PSD in the Prius is also lossier at maximum power (but more efficient at low loads). When all is said and done, a Volt puts down a maximum of .034hp/lb while a Pip maxes out at .028hp/lb.

 

[mattack4000]

They ARE losing sales. I know one guy personally who got out of line when he realized he wouldn't be able to get a 35k version with the full tax credit. That's a lost sale. I've heard other stories like his in various forums.

If they have a limit on what they can produce, why would they sell one that gives them no margin over ones that would give them more. Given the current wait time, I would say the one person they lost isn’t going to sink the company. If they make the 35k model for current owners only, are you going to complaint too?

 

[ebmcs03]

They ARE losing sales. I know one guy personally who got out of line when he realized he wouldn't be able to get a 35k version with the full tax credit. That's a lost sale. I've heard other stories like his in various forums.

Yup. I’ve been saying tesla needs to capture a new audience and not just existing customers. There’s only so many and if they keep pissing off new potential customers they will run out of people to sell cars to by next year.

 

[Canuck]

My concern isn't about me. It's about the future of the company. My question was - is it better for the future of the company to sell more expensive options to rich customers, or put more inexpensive teslas in middle class homes?

The future of the company depends on selling as many of the "more expensive options to rich customers" as they can before bringing the basic version out. In case you haven't noticed, Tesla's bleeding cash and suppliers can't wait to be paid which is what you seem to want them to do, risking being petitioned into bankruptcy if the wait to be paid is too long. This is all about life and death for Tesla. If you can't afford the current version, then your choice is to wait or look at other vehicles -- not to make it a class issue. Please remember that were it not for those "rich" S/X purchasers, there would be no Model 3 at all.