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Why I returned my 2019 Tesla Model X?

ajdelange

Active Member
Dec 10, 2018
1,077
540
Virginia/Quebec
I have to start by saying that my strategy here would be what several others of my cohort have suggested: keep the car until you get old enough you can't hear the noise. I estimate, from the spectrum posted in the linked article in the OP, that the whine is 44 dB down on the road noise. I wouldn't be able to hear that and can't on the recording. But if you hear it and it annoys you then it annoys you.

More to the point: what is it? I don't know, of course, but here's my guess. The cars contain 3 phase motors which work by chopping up the battery DC and sending the chopped DC to the stator coils in the motors (this is the case in both the synchronous and PM motors) such that a rotating magnetic field of desired phase, frequency and amplitude is produced. The chopping is done at a fixed rate and the frequency phase and amplitude are done by controlling the chopping duty cycle. To produce a low voltage, low frequency waveform one would start at a very low duty cycle and gradually increase it to a moderate duty cycle and then gradually lower it. This would produce a half sine wave of long period and moderate amplitude. Varying the duty cycle from low to high and then back to low again more rapidly would produce a higher voltage, higher frequency wave.

It's probably already obvious that I think the 4 kHz is the chopping rate. It is, in the linked spectrogram, really, really pure and nothing from the suspension or magnetic field harmonics would be so pure not to mention that there would be appreciable variation with speed which, if I have read the previous posts correctly, isn't there.

Thus it appears that stator current is being turned on and off at a 4 kHz rate. Leakage inductance would smooth that somewhat but every effort is made to keep leakage inductance down. Magnetostriction will thus cause the stator to vibrate at a 4 kHz rate with the intensity of the vibration varying as the duty cycle changes. Thus I would expect the loudness of the tone to vary with load more than speed. Under heavy load the magnitude of the currents produced will be higher and the sound, presumably, higher.

Now I would have thought the chopping rate would be higher but if I assume a maximum rotor speed of 10,000 rpm and a 4 pole motor that gives me at least 12 chopping interval per cycle (if I did the math right) and while that's sufficient I would have expected more.

There is nothing fundamentally different in the design of a SR as opposed to an IM motor that would make it more or less susceptible to this because the stators of each will be presented with sinusoidal wave forms synthesized by PWM (Puls Width Modulation is the name given to this technique). However some secondary aspect of the SR stator, such as its saliency, may make it more susceptible to the induced magnetostrictive vibrations.

Bottom line is that this is result of the design. I won't say it's a flaw because I don't hear it. But it is not something that can be fixed except by redesign. It's inherent in the way these cars work.

If anyone thinks that I wrote this based on an autopsy of a Tesla motor or a sit-down with one of their engineers, please disabuse yourself of that notion. It is pure speculation based on my limited understanding of the general practices in the EV industry today.
 
Last edited:

ajdelange

Active Member
Dec 10, 2018
1,077
540
Virginia/Quebec
Against the theory I offered in my last post is the fact that it is quite possible to adequately synthesize approximations to the sinusoid with switching periods per cycle. If that's what they do the pitch would change with motor speed and would only reach 4 kHz at around 10,000 rpm.

There is other switching going on in these cars. For example the DC/DC converter which charges the 12 V battery. And the inverter which runs the A/C compressor motor.
 

sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
7,618
5,645
Merced, CA
A pitch at 4K that loud like you have in the sample would be intolerable to me. I test drove a Raven P100D last month in Sunnyvale and did not hear that so I don't think it's normal or at least not every example has the issue.

At 50 years old, the maximum I can hear to now is just about 17 khz vs 21 khz until my early 30s. I do wear 15 db attenuators when I drive and the 25 db filters when I go to concerts. My wife who is now deaf in one ear thinks I'm overdoing it.
 
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sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
7,618
5,645
Merced, CA
For many, that 4K sound would be totally inaudible. As people age they tend to loose some hearing, and the loss tends to be the worst right around 4K frequency.

For people with a mild hearing loss, that sound you recorded would be a nothing burger.

Human hearing is most sensitive from 3K to 4K hz so even if you lost some sensitivity in that range, it would still be easier to hear than anything else. Hearing loss starts at the highest frequencies and works its way down. I've never heard of it starting at 4 khz.
 

Uncle Paul

Well-Known Member
Nov 1, 2013
6,105
6,607
Canyon Lake,CA
Interesting, but typical hearing loss from age or loud noises typically is worst in the 4Khz range.

Kids could hear a 4k whine, while an older person will find it perfectly quiet.
 

sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
7,618
5,645
Merced, CA
Interesting, but typical hearing loss from age or loud noises typically is worst in the 4Khz range.

Kids could hear a 4k whine, while an older person will find it perfectly quiet.

Not for me it isn't. I do have a slight hole just before 16 khz from several decades of CRT NTSC exposure but it's only slight. Once in a blue moon I'll walk into a building that still has an old CRT going and I'll tell you there's almost nothing worse than that sound when you are no longer habituated to it.
 
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ajdelange

Active Member
Dec 10, 2018
1,077
540
Virginia/Quebec
I'm 74 and don't hear a thing (other than the broadband). My wife is 71 and she doesn't hear anything either. Both with headphones.

I calculated that the tone is 44 dB down on the broadband noise and just found out from the simple audiometer at Ultimate Online Hearing Test — Independent • Reliable • Free Online Hearing Test + Free Audiogram Printout that I am down 20 dB at 4 kHz relative to what I am at lower frequencies. Thus I hear, or rather don't hear, the 4 kHz 66 dB down and little surprise there. Now I used to amuse myself with shooting and flying about in small airplanes without the David Clarks so I suppose I am where I should expect to be. My wife did not shoot and though she flew with me fairly often her exposure to airplane noise was not near as great.

It is, AFAIK, most unusual to be able to hear above 15 kHz past the age of about 25. That's why the FCC's broadcast standards only asked for 15 kHz audio bandwidth. CD's with their 44.1 kHz sampling rates could, theoretically, support 20 kHz audio bandwidth (with a good antialiasing filter). Of course the kids immediately destroyed their high frequency sensitivity by blasting the music too loud.

In any case WRT the car - something is vibrating at 4 kHz that shouldn't be. Better varnish on stator or rotor stampings or better potting of a torroidal transformer or inductor might solve the problem. Could be design issues or just this vehicle as I have never seen this reported before.

No, hearing loss doesn't start at 4 kHz. It starts at higher frequencies (unless you do something like punch a hole in it with a 357 magnum) but unfortunately works its way down to the 4 - 8 kHz octave pretty quickly. That's at the upper end of the "speech bannana" and is why us old gomers (1 in 3 at age 60, 1 in 2 at 70) have trouble in crowds but not so much one on one.
 
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ajdelange

Active Member
Dec 10, 2018
1,077
540
Virginia/Quebec
Ran the recording by my son (45). He can hear it to the point that he noticed the fade towards the end but said it certainly wouldn't bother him and he wouldn't have noticed it if I hadn't told him to listen for it.
 

AWDtsla

Active Member
Mar 3, 2013
4,262
3,952
NE
Talking about noise at 4khz is totally characterizing the issue. The frequency starts from 0Hz an goes up linearly with speed. It's just a noisy motor compared to the previous AC induction motor.
 

Kashif

Member
Jul 9, 2019
15
9
USA
Just a quick update on the return status in case if you have ever have to return your Tesla for whatever reason.

According to Tesla rep, 6-8 week delay to get your money refunded. It's over 8-weeks now since I signed my return paper work, and I still haven't receive my refund from Tesla yet! From Tesla feedback, they are still processing.

Not sure if this is typical in case of a return. Does anyone has gone through similar process before?
 

VT_EE

Active Member
Apr 22, 2017
2,019
2,408
Maryland
The noise will have a linear relationship with speed. It's permanent magnet cogging, as above. The motor is just not as smooth as the old induction motor.

I'll be amazed if Tesla does anything. They already either did the best they could, or found the noise to be acceptable.
I don't hear anything like this on my Model 3 RWD with a PMSR motor.
 
Mar 27, 2016
332
256
Melbourne fl
Hi Guys,

Just want to share my recent experience with Tesla. I bought and returned 2019 Model X due to some high pitch sound in Cabin. I wrote my whole experience with some technical analysis here. For people who are thinking buying one, please definitely check out following post:

Why I returned my 2019 Tesla Model X?

No high pitch noise on my Perf Blue Rave LUDICROUS, just the sound of a noisy Lambo fading behind me and some dude yelling SOB.
 

ajdelange

Active Member
Dec 10, 2018
1,077
540
Virginia/Quebec
Talking about noise at 4khz is totally characterizing the issue. The frequency starts from 0Hz an goes up linearly with speed. It's just a noisy motor compared to the previous AC induction motor.
This is apparently the PWM switching rate and is, thus, constant irrespective of rotor speed.
 

Nmhaskar

New Member
Nov 5, 2019
3
0
Dayton Ohio
New here - but I too hear this noise. Just bought my Long Range Model S in September. Terrific car overall except for that high pitch noise that you are discussing, which really can get annoying. Went to the SC but he didn’t seem to hear it (though admittedly it was raining and may have drowned out the sound a little). Mine occurs typically when there is about 20-30 KW power - generally flat roads going 40-60 mph. Hope there’s a fix soon!
 

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