Why I Won't Be Purchasing My 3rd Model S

[mxb172]

Sadly for OP, there's more to vehicle ownership and TCO than Apple Car Play and HUDs. I hope he's still convinced he made the right decision when comes time to replace oil, oil filter, spark plugs, fuel injectors, fuel filters, water pumps, timing belts, radiator coolant, AT fluid, oxygen sensors, catalytic convertors, mufflers, and much more general maintenance that doesn't come readily to mind. I hope he can take a lot of solace in his butt massage when all that's going on over the years.

I lease cars every 24-36 months depending on residual value and money factor calculations. I never get far enough to deal with fuel injectors, timing belts, etc. Will probably move back into an EV (Taycan or hopefully a nicer Model S) in 30 months.

I've driven the M5 daily for 2 straight weeks now and I truly think it's an incredible machine. It feels equivalent in terms of straight line acceleration to the P90D I owned before.

You may laugh at Apple CarPlay and the creature comforts, but don't knock it until you've tried it. CarPlay is a really nice UI compared to manufacturer stock, and even Tesla.

 

[jddssc121]

Except it's still an Audi made by the same company that literally poisoned the atmosphere with egregious levels of NOx who then lied about it, covered it up, lied about it again... So if you want to give your money to VW Group then fine... Keep in mind what that says about you as a person in doing so...

Jeff

I'm eager to learn how you apply these morals to all the purchases you make. Or is it one of those things you just use pin other people with?

 

[jeffro01]

I'm eager to learn how you apply these morals to all the purchases you make. Or is it one of those things you just use pin other people with?

What difference does it make to you? I can tell you I don't own a car made by the VW Group... (or anything else that I know of)

That being said, since you asked, my wife and I pay VERY close attention to what we buy, who makes it, and whether we want to do business with that company. Are we perfect? No, I'm sure we own things made by companies I'd rather not due business with. The point is, you pick your battles where you can and if you've seen the Dirty Money episode on Netflix regarding the VW NOx scandal and you STILL purchase a car made by them then I must conclude a few things about you that I can't say here as they will violate this forums T&Cs...

Jeff

 

[randvegeta]

Though I understand the desire for a better, and more up market interior fit and finish, I absolutely would not trade in my Tesla for any petrol car (money aside).

No my Tesla isn't perfect, and there is a lot to be desired. But since buying mine almost 2 years ago, I cannot imagine going back to an ICE. My wife, who was never keen on an EV to begin with, also just expects that all new cars we buy will be an EV. Not necessarily Tesla, but seems most likely.

But the Model S is a seriously practical car.

No BMW has the same cargo capacity as a MS. And I'm sorry but I don't care much for engine sounds in a big family sedan/saloon. I would reserve that for a real sports car.

Electric is the future. I don't care how refined or efficient that petrol/diesel car is. It's a step backwards. Technologically inferior, and bad for the environment. Especially if you're driving it in a spirited and dynamic way!

 

[whitex]

This is in no way meant to bash Audi as a company, but a counter story:

My local Audi dealership basically ignored me when I went in to drive the S7. It took me tracking down a salesman, having him put down Facebook (which he was *not* happy about), and then getting passed to 2 other salesmen before finally getting handed off to someone I suspect was either an intern or on their first few days.

The guy knew basically nothing about the car, and could not have cared less about selling it to me.

It wasn’t until the ride home that my wife pointed out the reason: my clothes. I’m in a cushy software job at a very large company, so my income is comparable to most doctors/lawyers/etc... but my wardrobe consists almost entirely of geek t-shirts and cargo shorts. While we were being ignored and I was checking out showroom cars, my wife noticed salesmen eagerly jumping up to greet the business wear clad customers.

Contrast this to Tesla in Highland Park, IL where I showed up for my appointment and was greeted warmly by the OA I’d been emailing. He happily showed me a demo car, and excitedly told me about all the neat features during our drive. He was never sales-y, but enthusiastic and obviously knowledgeable. At the end he asked if I wanted help placing an order and went over some payment options. When I said I still had a few cars to test he gave me his card and said he knew I would be back and to contact him. Confident but zero pressure.

Audi treated me like an annoyance who couldn’t possibly afford one of their cars. Tesla treated me like a customer.

As long as people work in sales roles, there will be different experiences. I was once refused a test drive of an Acura NSX, but went across the street and they gladly let me test drive and order a Porsche 911C4 - probably for the same reasons, the Acura sales guy didn't think there was a chance I was actually going to buy the car. I get why they do it too, while it might lose them an occasional sale, the idea is increase the overall long term return on their time. Something tells me a teenager with a skateboard and a T-shirt would show up to Test drive a P100D, he may also be refused.

I've consistently had great experience with Bellevue Tesla Service Center since 2013, but but over 4 Tesla purchases my OA and DS experiences varied. First OA was ok, 2nd was horrible (gave me incorrect information, started avoiding me as soon as I ordered), 3rd one was stellar - best, most helpful OA ever, the last one was great, recommended by the 3rd one who became a manager since. Similar story with DS, some were ok, the worse one I never even got to meet, not even at delivery. So, to my earlier point, as long as the experience depends on actual people, it will vary, even within the same company/brand.

 

[glide]

I don't know how many times this has to be debunked but a EV IS ENVIRONMENTALLY MORE FRIENDLY THAN A ICE... It just is. It's that simple. When is this going to sink in for you?

Please, go ahead and lock yourself in your garage and run your ICE for 30 min to cool it down... You seem to be so convinced it's safe so what's the problem? Scared?

Jeff

You’re talking about the finished product. Do you not understand what goes into building, maintaining, and operating the vehicle? You know, the OVERALL impact?

If EV’s are so safe, why don’t you let one roll over you and the magic rainbows they emit will protect you. Scared?

 

[Burnt Toast]

My 150k car should not creak and squeak when I sit inside.

If it's a lease, isn't it someone else's $150k car?

 

[10dot]

Yes A8 performance IS on par with 75d/100d. S8 performance is on par with P100D in all but the first 30mph of acceleration, after which it is equal.

RS7 is a bargain compared to P100D and stacks up nicely with it performance wise. You're the one who said S7...then said it doesn't stack up. To what...a 75d?it will blow the doors off a 75d. It matches up nicely with a 100d.
A7 = 75d
S7 = 100d
RS7 = P100D

In every case the audi is significantly less expensive, and has the 'new tech' you crave. Not sure where you're going.

This is simply untrue. The base A8 (this is the only one similar in price to a 75D) does 0-60 in 5.5. The S7 is 4.5, which is still slower than a 75D. I literally drove both cars a couple of days apart, and I'm telling you the 75D is noticeably faster in everything except flooring it at ~80mph. At that point the horsepower does take over and it pulls harder, but it most certainly does not "blow the doors off" a 75D and it's not even in the same universe as a P100D.

Now, if you're asking which will turn in a better lap time the answer is obvious: Audi all the way. But I don't race... I need a sedan that can hold 3 adults and a car seat plus luggage for a whole family that can *also* go really fast when the urge strikes. Bonus points if it doesn't burn dead dinosaur.

The RS7 is definitely quick, but at a base price of $113k it's close enough that if I wanted to spend that much (I don't) I'd just get a P100D, which is considerably quicker to 60mph and has the family-friendly features I mentioned earlier.

 

[10dot]

As long as people work in sales roles, there will be different experiences. I was once refused a test drive of an Acura NSX, but went across the street and they gladly let me test drive and order a Porsche 911C4 - probably for the same reasons, the Acura sales guy didn't think there was a chance I was actually going to buy the car. I get why they do it too, while it might lose them an occasional sale, the idea is increase the overall long term return on their time. Something tells me a teenager with a skateboard and a T-shirt would show up to Test drive a P100D, he may also be refused.

I've consistently had great experience with Bellevue Tesla Service Center since 2013, but but over 4 Tesla purchases my OA and DS experiences varied. First OA was ok, 2nd was horrible (gave me incorrect information, started avoiding me as soon as I ordered), 3rd one was stellar - best, most helpful OA ever, the last one was great, recommended by the 3rd one who became a manager since. Similar story with DS, some were ok, the worse one I never even got to meet, not even at delivery. So, to my earlier point, as long as the experience depends on actual people, it will vary, even within the same company/brand.

Yeah, that's why I said it wasn't meant to bash Audi as a company so much as that specific dealership/interaction. My experience at the Tesla SC was noticeably better, and I figured I'd add that to the pile of "good" experiences since it sounds like people have had some really bad ones as well.

 

[sakimano]

This is simply untrue. The base A8 (this is the only one similar in price to a 75D) does 0-60 in 5.5. The S7 is 4.5, which is still slower than a 75D.

These numbers don't sound remotely right. Source?
. 4.0T S8 is much quicker than that.
4.0t S7 is comfortably mid-high 3 seconds to 60 mph
S8 is comfortably low 3 seconds to 60 mph
RS7 is quicker still.

These are the old generation. The new ones are noticeably improved.

Feels don't replace facts.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/audi/s8/

https://www.caranddriver.com/audi/rs7p


Model S 75d starts (ugly wheels, no options) at $78,000. Make it nice like an Audi and it's $89,000

100D (same deal) starts at $97,000 but make it nice and it's $109,000

P100D (same deal) starts at $135,000...make it nice and it's $143,000.

The RS7 is definitely quick, but at a base price of $113k it's close enough that if I wanted to spend that much (I don't) I'd just get a P100D, which is considerably quicker to 60mph and has the family-friendly features I mentioned earlier.

The rs7 comes loaded at that price. To get a loaded P100D with nice wheels, Sunroof, etc you're up to $143,000. No autopilot.

If you mean '30% more expensive' = 'close enough' I think you're just ignoring facts to suit your thesis. The new rs7 will be 0-60 in 2.8-2.9 seconds from reports and will cost about $20-30,000 less than a P100D.

As I mentioned I own a P90D, so I made my choice before you use the typical 'tesla hater' refrain common on this site when someone disagrees, but let's not invent numbers.

 

[jaguar36]

The new rs7 will be 0-60 in 2.8-2.9 seconds from reports and will cost about $20-30,000 less than a P100D.

The new RS7 isn't something that exists yet, and by the time it does who knows what Tesla will have. Even still P100D 0-60 is half a second faster, that's a huge amount at such low times.

Regardless, 0-60 times are pretty worthless. What matters is what happens when you step on it on the road, and in a Tesla it's just WHAM off you go. In an RS7 or any other Audi you've gotta wait for the transmission to downshift, the throttle to open, the turbos to spool... its just not comparable. Maybe if they sold the RS7 with a proper manual (or any other Audi for that matter) I'd be interested in it, but with an automatic, nope!

 

[10dot]

The new RS7 isn't something that exists yet, and by the time it does who knows what Tesla will have. Even still P100D 0-60 is half a second faster, that's a huge amount at such low times.

Regardless, 0-60 times are pretty worthless. What matters is what happens when you step on it on the road, and in a Tesla it's just WHAM off you go. In an RS7 or any other Audi you've gotta wait for the transmission to downshift, the throttle to open, the turbos to spool... its just not comparable. Maybe if they sold the RS7 with a proper manual (or any other Audi for that matter) I'd be interested in it, but with an automatic, nope!

These numbers don't sound remotely right. Source?
. 4.0T S8 is much quicker than that.
4.0t S7 is comfortably mid-high 3 seconds to 60 mph
S8 is comfortably low 3 seconds to 60 mph
RS7 is quicker still.

These are the old generation. The new ones are noticeably improved.

Feels don't replace facts.

Audi S8 Reviews: Research New & Used Models | Motor Trend

https://www.caranddriver.com/audi/rs7p


Model S 75d starts (ugly wheels, no options) at $78,000. Make it nice like an Audi and it's $89,000

100D (same deal) starts at $97,000 but make it nice and it's $109,000

P100D (same deal) starts at $135,000...make it nice and it's $143,000.


The rs7 comes loaded at that price. To get a loaded P100D with nice wheels, Sunroof, etc you're up to $143,000. No autopilot.

If you mean '30% more expensive' = 'close enough' I think you're just ignoring facts to suit your thesis. The new rs7 will be 0-60 in 2.8-2.9 seconds from reports and will cost about $20-30,000 less than a P100D.

As I mentioned I own a P90D, so I made my choice before you use the typical 'tesla hater' refrain common on this site when someone disagrees, but let's not invent numbers.

As jaguar36 helpfully pointed out, the new RS7 isn't a car you can purchase today.

Now about the S7, my numbers come from the highly unreliable source of Audi's actual marketing material:

2018 Audi S7 | Performance | Audi USA

Have you driven both back to back? I'm telling you that I have, and the 75D is noticeable quicker to 80mph and you simply can't compare the "throttle" response. The only edge the S7 has in off-the-line performance is that it does have a launch mode. Again, at like 80mph the S7 does pull a little harder... but I'm a dad who more often than not has his kids in the car, so that's not really a driving situation I encounter often.

Yes, the RS7 is quicker than a 75D and nicer inside. It also costs more, and still has the old non-touch-screen tech stack (again, the "new" model is not a car you can currently purchase for money).

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I love my 2013 P85, but I would not buy another Model S or Model X today. They are inferior in build quality and interior materials compared to the Model 3. The X/S need to be completely redesigned. Tesla needs to step up its game. Anyone who shells out money for a Model S today is basically buying into a 7 year old design. Facelift ≠ redesign

My friend test drove a brand new P100D. Right away he noticed that the steering wheel was vibrating due to the AC. He hated the air vents. I sat in the back and couldn't believe how poor the air circulation was compared to the Model 3. No rear AC controls like in almost any other vehicle of this class. He hated the feel of the "next gen" seats. After the test drive he said, "I'll wait for Porsche's EV."

0-60 time is not the most important metric for most people. The Model S and X have significant shortcomings in areas that are heavily judged by customers. One comment he made is seared into my brain: "When will Tesla make a car for adults?"

The days of customers willing to pay $100k for a go-cart are coming to an end.

 

[Super_Popular]

I love my 2013 P85, but I would not buy another Model S or Model X today. They are inferior in build quality and interior materials compared to the Model 3. The X/S need to be completely redesigned. Tesla needs to step up its game. Anyone who shells out money for a Model S today is basically buying into a 7 year old design. Facelift ≠ redesign

You still have that 2013?!, dang I thought you would have sold it by now.

 

[SuisseDriver]

I don't know where you get your numbers but 10dot is right: the S7 is just slightly less quick than the S75D and not all comparable to the 100D (I know both as I have a S75D and my father a S100D)
http://www.zeperfs.com/en/fiche4330-audi-s7-4-0-tfsi.htm

• S75D in France with metal / leather / AP = 93kCHF
• Audi A7 3.0 TDI 286PS (so much less powerful) + options to match Tesla equipment ) 102kCHF

But the difference become massive when speaking of leasing. Example in Switzerland with 23kCHF downpayment, 5 years leasing (my case):

• S75D (mine): 680 CHF/month
• A7 3.0 TDI: 1220CHF
• Audi S7: 1700CHF

With my 3000km/month, I am saving 400CHF of diesel vs electricity and road tax that you need to add the the Audi (gazoline is even much more expensive).
So basically, monthly, the A7 diesel is 2,2 more expensive and the S7 3 times more expensive. THREE times.

The same calculation apply in France (where you have no yearly road tax but 6k€ bonus for EV) where the factor difference are the same.

The S75D is soooooo much cheaper that it even does not compare.

For me, I need AWD (lot of snow here), and I have 3 kids and needs a lot of storage. In the Tesla, I have 3 real seats at the back and no armrest on the middle with a flat floor. I can tell you that the kids see the difference. There is 880l of cargo space that no car except the biggest SUV can touch.

So basically, I have:

• a car of the size and performance of the S7 for 1/3 of the price
• more space than an Audi Q7
• a car very silent
• all the equipment of modern car

So yes, it is not perfect but when I compare my S75D with similar cost ICE I could have (Renault Talisman 1,6 DCI), well, I did not think twice.

 

[jeffro01]

You’re talking about the finished product. Do you not understand what goes into building, maintaining, and operating the vehicle? You know, the OVERALL impact?

If EV’s are so safe, why don’t you let one roll over you and the magic rainbows they emit will protect you. Scared?

Is reading comprehension a problem for you? Apparently so... This has been debunked a million times over and you seem to be conveniently forgetting the amount of energy needed to extract oil from the ground and refine it in to gasoline, transporting it, etc...

EVs Beat Gas Cars Even When Emissions from Production are Included

Ignorance like what you're displaying is stunning with all of the information readily available at "google.com"...

Yikes...

Jeff

 

[jeffro01]

I love my 2013 P85, but I would not buy another Model S or Model X today. They are inferior in build quality and interior materials compared to the Model 3. The X/S need to be completely redesigned. Tesla needs to step up its game. Anyone who shells out money for a Model S today is basically buying into a 7 year old design. Facelift ≠ redesign

My friend test drove a brand new P100D. Right away he noticed that the steering wheel was vibrating due to the AC. He hated the air vents. I sat in the back and couldn't believe how poor the air circulation was compared to the Model 3. No rear AC controls like in almost any other vehicle of this class. He hated the feel of the "next gen" seats. After the test drive he said, "I'll wait for Porsche's EV."

0-60 time is not the most important metric for most people. The Model S and X have significant shortcomings in areas that are heavily judged by customers. One comment he made is seared into my brain: "When will Tesla make a car for adults?"

The days of customers willing to pay $100k for a go-cart are coming to an end.

Yeah because there are so many cars on the market with autopilot, a huge 17" screen, and instant torque...

No neither the S or the X are perfect but you describe them as horrible products which they are clearly not. People are free to make their own choices naturally but you really have to be looking for reasons NOT to buy a Tesla if you've actually driven one...

What happened to you? You used to be a positive person around here, now over the last couple of years you've fallen off the deep end...

Jeff

 

[mxb172]

What happened to you? You used to be a positive person around here, now over the last couple of years you've fallen off the deep end...

Jeff

He, like many of us, has become disenchanted with the cheap materials, build quality and lack of premium fit/finish expected in a $140k car. You seem to be deep on the bandwagon, which is perfectly fine. Just accept that some of us are looking at these cars differently then when we first bought them. If sales of the Model S are to continue at the current pace, something needs to change. Clearly the focus of Tesla now is to ramp up M3 production, so I don't anticipate a meaningful change to the S/X for at least several years. In the meantime, many of us are looking at other options.

 

[jddssc121]

What difference does it make to you?

Exactly my point.

then I must conclude a few things about you

So everyone should keep their nose out of your purchases, but you want to judge others based on theirs. That's quite the cognitive dissonance.

 

[jeffro01]

Exactly my point.



So everyone should keep their nose out of your purchases, but you want to judge others based on theirs. That's quite the cognitive dissonance.

You asked, I answered out of fairness to avoid what you inevitably posted anyhow so... Whatever...

Jeff