Why I'm Not Opting for Full Self-Driving

[t3sl4drvr]

FSD is pure vaporware, do not buy it. You will just end up feeling scammed. Someday, maybe this changes: buy it then.

EAP works, but is not worth the price.

AP is wonderful and is included in the price.

(I have bought both EAP and FSD, so shame on me: foolishly trusted Musks statements in the last shareholders meeting)

 

[Maxpilot]

I am having buyer's remorse since buying my 2020 Model S with "FSD". I thought it was further along when I ordered it, and thought it was just me needing to learn how to use it the first several weeks. But after driving the car for several thousand miles and using the "FSD" feature, I realize it is nowhere near full self driving. Using it stresses me out more than when I taught my kids how to drive. Like some others on this thread, I wish I could get a refund for "FSD".

Also, I feel that everyone that paid for "FSD" should get the latest "FSD" beta. I have to monitor the current version of beta as it is, there is nothing special about driving that makes the few that have the "FSD" beta more qualified to have it.

 

[Bednarz42]

I find it hard to call it vaporware, you are getting something for your purchase.

However, I agree in that what you're currently getting for $10k is a terrible value proposition in comparison to whats already included on autopilot. Aside from the chime on green and traffic light awareness the features are the same from when it was $6k to $10k.

As the days go by and deadlines missed, it becomes increasingly difficult to imagine a working FSD car that passes regulatory approval any time soon. And for those that have no intention of putting their car in a robotaxi fleet, the value just isn't there.

Part of me believes they're pricing people out on purpose to push everyone to the subscription model when its ready for release. Wall street loves recurring revenue models these days, and I'm sure Tesla is aware of that.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I find it hard to call it vaporware, you are getting something for your purchase.

Absolutely correct. You get the privilege of fighting with your car

Things like:

"What is wrong with you?"
"Why do you keep prompting me that you want to get over; we're fine right here"
"WTF? I thought you said you wanted to pass, and passing is to the left and not the right"
"Sorry, my bad. That was the correct lane"
"That semi-truck wasn't even in the lane next to use so why did you cancel?"
"What do you want from me? First you say to apple torque to the steering wheel, and now you cancel because its too much. Just make up your friggen mind"
"I clicked summons which means come to me, and not to sit there looking like an idiot In the middle of the road"

Plus for the low price of $10k you triple your "phantom braking" bonus points.

With Basic AP you miss out on so much agony that you might as well be dead

Passionate people choose FSD.

With FSD comes great suffering

Life is about suffering

Choose Life, choose FSD

 

[Sunshine State]

Interesting, so in what category would you put me then?
I have an AP1 car and an FSD car and engage FSD/Autopilot every single drive.

FSD is worth every penny to me - knowing that updates keep coming.

I would put you in the category that doesn’t have both current versions of the Tesla Autopilot systems. I also used to have the older Mobileye AP1 system and liked it very much. I’m not sure which version of FSD you have because there is 2, 2.5 and 3.0 and each has been a leap in capability. Tesla is not updating AP1 because it isn’t a Tesla system but the current Tesla AP3 systems will continue to receive updates for quite some time. If you sell your AP1 car and buy a new AP Tesla I’m sure if you like your FSD you will enjoy the current AP 3.0 and will likely feel it was a smart buy for $10k less

 

[Needsdecaf]

Absolutely correct. You get the privilege of fighting with your car

Things like:

"What is wrong with you?"
"Why do you keep prompting me that you want to get over; we're fine right here"
"WTF? I thought you said you wanted to pass, and passing is to the left and not the right"
"Sorry, my bad. That was the correct lane"
"That semi-truck wasn't even in the lane next to use so why did you cancel?"
"What do you want from me? First you say to apple torque to the steering wheel, and now you cancel because its too much. Just make up your friggen mind"
"I clicked summons which means come to me, and not to sit there looking like an idiot In the middle of the road"

Plus for the low price of $10k you triple your "phantom braking" bonus points.

Thank you for reminding me why I didn't spend $4k on EAP a few months ago.

 

[mikes_fsd]

I would put you in the category that doesn’t have both current versions of the Tesla Autopilot systems.

But I do have both AP1 and FSD with HW3.

I also used to have the older Mobileye AP1 system

The key words here are "used to"... because I will tell you if you used AP1 regularly and switched back and forth from FSD car to AP1 car, you would not be singing AP1 praises after driving with the latest Autopilot suite (only in comparison to latest Tesla offering, not when compared to the rest of the ADAS market offerings

not sure which version of FSD you have because there is 2, 2.5 and 3.0 and each has been a leap in capability.

If you bought FSD (paid for the option) pretty much everyone who wanted the HW3 already got it... ppl on these boards keep making up levels that do not exist.

 

[Sunshine State]

But I do have both AP1 and FSD with HW3.

The key words here are "used to"... because I will tell you if you used AP1 regularly and switched back and forth from FSD car to AP1 car, you would not be singing AP1 praises after driving with the latest Autopilot suite (only in comparison to latest Tesla offering, not when compared to the rest of the ADAS market offerings

If you bought FSD (paid for the option) pretty much everyone who wanted the HW3 already got it... ppl on these boards keep making up levels that do not exist.

I’m comparing the subject of this thread and that is the value of current FSD to current AP. You seem confused but that’s ok. I have to laugh at "Singing the Praises" you misunderstand. I never said I was comparing AP1 to AP, I currently have several HW3 Tesla S’s, a 2019, a 2020 and a 2021, and I do go back and forth daily between them and they are one FSD and two AP cars as I posted earlier. I’d say I have a pretty good understanding of the current Autopilot systems. I also had an AP1 system, several AP1’s on both S’s and X’s in fact, they were made by MobilEye. You say "used to" I did have an old system like the one you are comparing to but AP1 but that isn’t the subject of the thread. I am in no way comparing the two different manufacturers AP systems because that isn’t the OP’s subject and they are different technology. Current AP is not AP1 and I was not comparing them, is that what you are saying? When you say "ppl on these boards are making up levels" I think that ignorance must be bliss. You asked what category I put you in and you say you have AP1 and FSD, and I said someone how doesn’t have both systems "AP and FSD", you say have AP1 and FSD, not the same, they are totally different. What is it that is confusing?

 

[t3sl4drvr]

I find it hard to call it vaporware, you are getting something for your purchase.

I had EAP previously. Musk's statements in 2020 shareholders meetings did let me believe that they would deliver supervised self drive by the end of 2020 and eventually a robo-taxi service that would pay back for FSD feature. Based on this, I shelled out $5000 to upgrade EAP to FSD.

Only thing I got as return, was stopping at traffic lights. Disparity between the FSD value proposition and what I got for $5000 is so large that calling it "vaporware" should be appropriate.

I am sure that given the option, many FSD buyers would opt to get their money back and "return" the non-existing feature. Probably there would be sufficient legal grounds to sue Tesla for misrepresentation, but effort needed is not worth it.

Delivery of what has been demonstrated with FSD beta program would change my perception overnight. Whether this happens in 1-2 months (most recent statement for FSD subscription offering) or never is unclear.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Delivery of what has been demonstrated with FSD beta program would change my perception overnight. Whether this happens in 1-2 months (most recent statement for FSD subscription offering) or never is unclear.

It's most definitely unclear.

My expectation is that Elon will want to release FSD beta to the fleet of FSD vehicles sometime 8 months from now (elon time + 6 months = more realistic timeline), but he's liking going to run into hurdles.

The issue is there is a lot of liability wrapped up in autonomous driving.

The FSD beta drivers are essentially untrained safety drivers trying to supervise FSD. It's currently a fairly small program (around 1K drivers spread across the country). No power at be has tried to put a stop to it most likely because nothing has happened yet.

It's like someone started a tiny controlled fire, and people are just watching to see what happens. I'm sure the NHTSA, various state DMV's, insurance groups, etc. are watching closely.

No one has had much reason to challenge Tesla on whether this is really L2 driving anymore. It's really pushing the boundaries on the ability of normal drivers to oversee an autonomous vehicle. It seems to be getting better with each software iteration, and likely later this year its going to be so good that some of the FSD beta drivers might let their guard down.

There will be injuries, and deaths as a result of FSD beta. There are way too many variables for there not to be. Having those deaths as a result of L2 supervised driving is much easier for the public to accept than an L4 system (waymo, cruise, etc) so Tesla can get away with taking more chances in growing the L2 system to autonomous system.

But, not while its in the early access program while there is so much publicity around it. The NHTSA does clamp down time to time, and the insurance groups could simply say they don't cover the FSD beta and that by using it your breaking your agreement with them.

I think everyone is in a wait, and see mode as Tesla expands the FSD beta testing to include more vehicles.

What I'd like to see is a more official signed acceptance of responsibility with the FSD beta for Tesla to enable it. Something that showed a driver was well aware of the risks of it, and waived Tesla from any liability as a result of the driver failing to supervise it.

Even if I had it I'm sure there are places where I simply wouldn't use it due to the danger of me being complacent (in all my self testing I've discovered with horror that I'm human). On the flip side there are areas where I would use it as I would feel like I had a second set of eyes. Like busy multilane stop signs.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think everyone is in a wait, and see mode as Tesla expands the FSD beta testing to include more vehicles.

What I'd like to see is a more official signed acceptance of responsibility with the FSD beta for Tesla to enable it. Something that showed a driver was well aware of the risks of it, and waived Tesla from any liability as a result of the driver failing to supervise it.

I think it depends on how Tesla releases to general public. If they just release it as "Autosteer in Cities", then that makes it more clear it's a L2 feature, and they may throw the rest on the back burner until they work out more of the liability issues and/or have more testing under their belt.

If instead Tesla throws it out as FSD public beta (with or without supervision) then that blurs the line a lot more and brings the issues you brought up.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I think it depends on how Tesla releases to general public. If they just release it as "Autosteer in Cities", then that makes it more clear it's a L2 feature, and they may throw the rest on the back burner until they work out more of the liability issues and/or have more testing under their belt.

If instead Tesla throws it out as FSD public beta (with or without supervision) then that blurs the line a lot more and brings the issues you brought up.

It's going to be hard for Tesla to thread the needle on having enough capability in FSD for customers to subscribe, but not so much capability that it blurs the lines between L2 and supervised autonomous driving.

I would assume autosteer on city streets eliminates:
uncontrolled turns
go on green without a follow car
roundabouts
go when its your turn on stop signs

Basically any situation where the car has to make a decision on when to proceed from a stopped or slowed position. Where it requires some form of confirmation to continue.

In my case its still useful because currently I'm unable to use AP on city streets on the way to work because it makes about a half dozen intervention worthy mistakes that the FSD beta doesn't seem to make.

But, its going to irk a lot of customers as it would feel a bit like a bait and switch. Imagine buying a Tesla+FSD thinking you'd at least get L2 FSD beta driving like what's being shown only to end up with a much more limited autosteer on city streets. The FSD beta videos are being posted with the approval of Tesla so they do act as marketing. It seemed to me that quite a few of us on TMC were a bit floored by the capabilities of FSD beta when we were expecting only autosteer on city streets. So its a bit unclear what to expect because Elon is saying things that are completely different than what the website shows.

Elon to my knowledge hasn't told anyone to expect a much more restricted version.

I do believe a more limited FSD beta is what will get released as Tesla has done that before. Where they'll promise restrictions will be lifted. But, that won't get subscribers very quickly. Maybe a more realistic timeline is auto-steer on city streets within the first quarter of this year with capabilities slowly being added. Then the FSD subscription late this year.

 

[Fernand]

FWIW, I ordered EAP with the car and added the version 3 hardware with a "FSD upgrade". I'm very comfortable riding that automation as it stands, much more than dealing with the humans with their "much better than a robot" creative driving. I know when to use what mode, and what to expect.

It's not about being inattentive and "letting the car drive". This is an incorrect perspective. There are some tasks and situations that a human is ideally suited for. Level 5 autonomy is neither necessary nor desirable in e.g. dense city situations with (appropriately) ever more pedestrian, skateboards, crazy cabbies and evolving 2-3 wheelers than personal cars.

An EV's automation is about division of labor and delegating more and more of the menial, nerve-wracking and tiring tasks. A manual car is like a body in which you'd have to deliberately pump every heartbeat, take every breath and release hormones when needed.

The base autopilot already does some of the low level stuff. But I find NOA to be absolutely critical to driving on our Freeways at speeds over 75MPH. Or bumper to bumper. I don't want to drive manual cars any more, it's too tiring and irritating. And I expect the street level NOA (so-called "FSD") to gradually move further along that continuum.

I do expect a lot of advances over the next 2 years. I can't see applying accounting formulas, worrying about exact timelines or exact features, because this stuff has never been done before, I'm not immortal, and I want to get to see it all while I can.

I wouldn't buy a "half a Tesla" without the full AI. If I must choose, to me it's way more important than the longest range battery, dual motors, not to speak of "performance" models. There are plenty of chargers, and a single motor Tesla is plenty fast and powerful. On the automation, either you're in or you're not. So far it's a great adventure, and a wonderful way to get from one point to another, where a car is appropriate.
.

 

[bo3bdar]

I'm waiting for Tesla to correctly write their manual as a signal that they have the institutional rigor to write safe software.

I have been a car guy since I was born and one of the things I love is driving the car, I have no interest is FSD and all the update they have put out for FSD have done nothing but mess up the UI. It is unfortunate that you cannot decline updates that are related to this if you do not want FSD.

These comments are accurate for me as well. I'm a long time car guy, but also a long time tech guy and I love the idea of self driving cars and the progress that has been made. I watched and have followed Waymo cars when driving around Mt. View for years.

However- FSD as it is currently designed is a non-starter for me as a software guy. I've done software for 35 years, including a small amount of 'AI' neural network based machine learning, and there is not a chance in hell that I'm trusting Tesla software to get this right- when my life is on the line.


FSD 'Beta' is classic Demo software. Works just well enough to demonstrate, is not even remotely close to shippable. And yet here we are, shipping the Demo to people and using them and unsuspecting other drivers on the road as guinea pigs.

If the other Tesla software on the car were flawless, or they could show they can write a manual, I'd cut them some slack. But the car software is glitchy as hell. Almost every time I drive it does something weird. The FSD 'visualization' now that it abusively wastes a full third of my screen for their FSD advertisement- is terrifying. It shows stuff that is not there, it misses stuff that it should see. I'm telling you as a software dev, this is nothing more than Demo software, not even Beta.

Call me back when your software can make automatic windshield wipers and automatic high beams that aren't pathetic. Or when your so-called Automatic Emergency Braking can stop before pounding into a Fire Truck. What I see with Tesla software is inexperienced software devs who do the easy parts first, and then stall out when they hit the hard parts. They don't seem to finish any of their software, and they don't have very good QA or testing, or don't care about bugs. Friends of mine have had the main display go black while driving. How is that acceptable? Nothing is ever finished, and it's always a little buggy- yeah that's a good recipe for mission critical software.


I could be talked into paying $10K for it, if it could actually do low speed, non life threating driving without any attention on my part. If we keep the speed below 30 mph, I'm not going to die, and it'd be a great boon to be able to get time back in low speed scenarios. I see people making arguments that we will never get there, but I think it's feasible if we slow things down and lower the risks using low speed driving. Do fully automatic stop-and-go traffic with zero attention from me, and you've got something work $10K.

I hate to miss out on the self driving progress, but Tesla has not demonstrated any ability to properly write software, so at least for me, there is zero chance I'd pay $10K for it, and I'd never be first in line to use it even if it were subscription. It'll be in that deathly spot for years, where it's just good enough to lull you into a false sense of security that it works, and then screws up or insists that it's your job with 0.25 seconds before impact. See the Uber self driving experience for how humans react to systems that work 98% of the time.