Why is Autopilot always trying to Kill me?

[drtimhill]

EXACTLY my point! As a new Tesla owner and reading the manual, one would EXPECT Tesla would be able to navigate on a highway like this (besides the traffic light which I was prepared to take over if it changed to red)...

Please show me where the manual creates this expectation. I've quoted the relevant section, as has Tomas. Tesla state no less than three times in the manual that autosteer/AP is designed for use on freeways/highways with on/off ramps ONLY. That is clearly not the case in your first example (as evidenced by your own photo).

Im sorry you had this expectation, and that, as a result, your car has disappointed you. But I don't think you can blame Tesla for that. Yes, there are 3rd parties who over-hype autosteer/AP, but why would you assume, in this age of misinformation and untrustworthy sources, that what they say is factual and accurate?

Even so, let's look at this another way. You were using autosteer beyond its specified use, and how did it react? It got into a situation it was uncertain about, and BRAKED. That sounds like a safer reaction than just plainly driving on and hoping for the best. And it doesnt sound like AP was trying to kill you .. quite the opposite in fact.

And as for the on-ramp centering. Yes, when it happens (less so then before, but still sometimes) it can be annoying. But is that life-threatening? One thing the car will not do is behave like that when another car is merging using that ramp; it's always handled this just fine the many many times I've observed it handling this.

Sadly there have been a number of tragic deaths when a Tesla was on AP. Some of those were caused by AP abuse (in one famous case the driver was watching a DVD movie), in a few cases AP was implicated as a factor. But what about all the times AP has prevented accidents? You simply dont hear about all these because "AUTOPILOT KILLS DRIVER" headlines sell, "AUTOPILOT SAVES DRIVER" headlines do not. Am I therefore being an apologist for autosteer/AP? No, it's pointing out that you need to be balanced when looking at any new technology or safety system. And certainly more balanced than "Why is autopilot always trying to kill me?" hyperbole which just fans the flames of ill-informed shouting matches.

 

[Travelhead]

You were using autosteer beyond its specified use, and how did it react? It got into a situation it was uncertain about, and BRAKED. That sounds like a safer reaction than just plainly driving on and hoping for the best. And it doesnt sound like AP was trying to kill you .. quite the opposite in fact.

if you read my follow up reply, you can see that I wrote that for 10 minutes before I approached the intersection, I was using AP appropriately on a highway with no traffic lights or weird ramps or merging lanes. I was preparing to take over auto pilot as I approached this intersection when all hell broke loose and the car slammed on the breaks.

 

[Tigerkc]

The problem is new owner has expectations beyond what current beta software can handle. There is no point bashing the software for situations that it cannot handle yet.

 

[Oldschool496]

Again its
not the AP that failed. He failed to fully understand how AP works, its limitations and the pure fact its just one step better then cruise control of old. That one step better is the car steers also. SO maybe thats it, would one let cruise control of old with some steering let the car take over completely? No way in hell. Thats what this is, no better no worse. Enhanced Cruise Control with steering. Beta testers.

can you go into more detail

Its fully documented crash here in Florida on State Road 7

in Palm Beach County. There are full forums on this sight long gone by about it. It was right after people started buying Model 3s with supposedly full self drive computers, they weren't. People got it wrong. Did he get it wrong? I really don't think so, he was pretty smart guy.

He was a computer programmer, he knew what the deal was, he I think just got complacent for 8 seconds on his way to work and tractor tailer crossed his path at 90 degrees and the entire top of the Model 3 was sheered off. It traveled on for some distance after going under the trailer. His name was Jeremy Banner. 8 seconds cost him his life. 8 seconds was the entire time from the moment he had activated AP and the crash happened. He probably dropped something or spilled his coffee.

His family is suing Tesla.

All that being said, I use AP, I use it sparingly, under only certain circumstances and hopefully always fully ready to take over. I don't use it in the rain either, full sun facing the car it impedes the cameras view, all of that is in the manual.

 

[Travelhead]

Again its
not the AP that failed. He failed to fully understand how AP works, its limitations and the pure fact its just one step better then cruise control of old. That one step better is the car steers also. SO maybe thats it, would one let cruise control of old with some steering let the car take over completely? No way in hell. Thats what this is, no better no worse. Cruise control with steering. Beta testers.



Its fully documented crash here in Florida on State Road 7View attachment 464717 in Palm Beach County. There are full forums on this sight long gone by about it. It was right after people started buying Model 3s with supposedly full self drive computers, they weren't. People got it wrong. Did he get it wrong? I really don't think so, he was pretty smart guy.

He was a computer programmer, he knew what the deal was, he I think just got complacent for 8 seconds on his way to work and tractor tailer crossed his path at 90 degrees and the entire top of the Model 3 was sheered off. It traveled on for some distance after going under the trailer. His name was Jeremy Banner. 8 seconds cost him his life. 8 seconds was the entire time from the moment he had activated AP and the crash happened. He probably dropped something or spilled his coffee.

His family is suing Tesla.

All that being said, I use AP, I use it sparingly, under only certain circumstances and hopefully always fully ready to take over. I don't use it in the rain either, full sun facing the car it impedes the cameras view, all of that is in the manual.

I think we need more people like you on this forum to help newer Tesla owners understand the true risks of autopilot.

Too many Tesla zealots give unrealistic expectations to new customers.

 

[Tam]

...Which is why the point of this thread is to say to the Tesla community to stop BS’ing new owners into thinking that autopilot works if used as instructed, it’s simple not the case.

Autopilot works as designed which doesn't mean it works as a driver wants it.

If you bought a car that has not been finished and then you complain that it's so wet, so noisy but anyone who looks at the car would know that is exactly what you should expect if the car has not got its doors installed.

The nature of a car without doors installed means wet when it rains and windy noisy.

Many scenarios don't work for Autopilot could just simply mean that software engineers haven't worked on those levels just yet.

The current design of Autopilot is human services the Automation.

Owners pay good money just to babysit the Autopilot instead of Autopilot servicing owners.

Some people like babysitting even though babies don't know how to walk or talk just yet. That's what Autopilot is: It's a BABY!

If you don't have the skills to supervise Autopilot, you have no business in using it!

 

[Oldschool496]

expectations to new customers.

It really scares me to think that people are not getting this. I have another friend asked me " do you use autopilot"

I answered him a resounding yes,

He looked at me and shook his head as he also just bought a Model 3n not knowing myself until I saw his car.

He's a doctor, he is smart also.

I was thinking about it on the way home tonight, before someone else dies here, I must get to him. He is Asian and very proud, I'm not sure how I will broach the subject with him.

 

[Travelhead]

Guys this is turning into a huge thread, so let me clarify why I started it.

I am a new customer. I had expectations of AP from this forum, YouTube videos, and other sources in the Tesla community.

Unless new owners dive deep and actually read a critical thread about AP, everything seems like roses and flowers. It’s very unclear to new owners what the expectations and CORRECT utilization of autopilot is, and I think that only develops after using autopilot 30+ times to really get a feel of its strengths and weaknesses AND reading critical forum posts and videos about the FAULTS of AP (and by then it might be too late for some who have AP accidents or worse).

 

[Oldschool496]

Nice way of putting it.

That's what Autopilot is: It's a BABY!

 

[shinytop]

YouTubers are part of the problem. I have been researching Teslas since I first rode in one last November. I have had my X just one month. But on YT you can find many videos of "influencers" driving on two lane roads on AP. New release comes up and they drive the same route comparing how well AP works after update. Can easily see why people can assume it is okay to use everywhere.

Note, just because somebody has a YT channel with Tesla in its name does not mean they are from Tesla or that they are following Tesla's guidelines in their use of AP or Navigate on Autopilot.

 

[drtimhill]

Too many Tesla zealots give unrealistic expectations to new customers.

Where did you get these expectations from? Where are these "Tesla zealots"? Most of the posts I've seen on TMC are friendly, sober, realistic, and helpful. I was blunt in my original post not to be insulting, but to underline that what you were doing was potentially dangerous for you. Again, I'm sorry if your expectations were set incorrectly, and your experiences did not match those expectations. You seem disappointed in AP, and are perhaps angry, but at whom? Tesla? The people in this thread who have corrected your expectations? Why?

FWIW, I would characterize AP (when used on a freeway) as having the same driving competence as someone who has newly-passed their driving test. Competent, capable in normal driving conditions, but a bit nervous and inclined to over-react to situations that are unusual.

--Tim

 

[tomas]

Guys this is turning into a huge thread, so let me clarify why I started it.

I am a new customer. I had expectations of AP from this forum, YouTube videos, and other sources in the Tesla community.

Unless new owners dive deep and actually read a critical thread about AP, everything seems like roses and flowers. It’s very unclear to new owners what the expectations and CORRECT utilization of autopilot is, and I think that only develops after using autopilot 30+ times to really get a feel of its strengths and weaknesses AND reading critical forum posts and videos about the FAULTS of AP (and by then it might be too late for some who have AP accidents or worse).

I only read this forum. Not YouTube channels. I think it is pretty balanced. If anything, over critical of AP. Not sure what you are referring to. Can you link a thread or two?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

The two things the OP listed are drawbacks of AP, and why I still give AP a failing grade.

I wouldn't say it's trying to kill me though.

I honestly don't understand why Tesla has allowed AP to continue to behave in the right lane the way it does. Who wants their car to re-center every time the lane widens as cars merge? The one is absolutely maddening as it's not a technical limitation. It's probably because Elon doesn't understand what it's like just like he doesn't know what a Costco parking lot is like.

As to the car not detecting stopped objects or objects (like a semi-trailer) crossing it's path has always been a limitation of radar based systems. This is an significant issue because Vision based systems are notorious flaky. For example Pedestrian detection is purely visual. But, when AAA tested pedestrian detection systems of various cars (including a Tesla Model 3) they all failed. They couldn't reproducible detect the pedestrian in real world situations.

The most dangerous aspect of these systems is they give people a false sense of security. I myself have used the sense of security offered by these systems because I knew I was going to be distracted for a few seconds. Pretty much everyone that drives has a few of these moments either intentionally or unintentionally (like some bug in our hair or bee in the car).

We just have to make sure we keep reminding ourselves not to trust it.

The best assumption you can make is Yes, it really is trying to kill you.

 

[RDoc]

 

[aronth5]

If you stick to freeways and highways where access is limited by entry and exit ramps and single lane secondary roads with few lights and stop signs NoA works reasonably well.
Assuming the NoA will properly take highway exits safely everytime before it disengages can be problematic so that is where I'm very quick to take over.

And I never use NoA on regular multi-lane roads with lots of cars getting on and off the road using turning lanes as the OP's picture showed.​

 

[Electroman]

After I first got my Model S I had similar 'problems'. But after driving it a while I've figured out what the car could do and could not do. It was a little learning curve. Now I just know what to expect when driving so it doesn't bother me because i anticipate the situations and make corrections as necessary.
I think once you figure out the quirks of your car's driving , you'll have no problem with it. I love driving with the autopilot and really have no problems with it now.

Very well said.

OP:

If you keep complaining about those edge cases, you are going to completely miss out on the 90% of the driving it drives FLAWLESSLY.

You have a choice here. You can be extra vigilant for first few weeks, observe how AP behaves in many situations, understand its strengths and weakness (just like any system), and enjoy where it really works great.

OR, get into a hyperbole mode, only focus on those few edge cases, complain with a shrill voice, "AP is trying to kill me" and lose out on using an amazing feature.

This is like, trying to learn riding a bicycle, falling down, and then shunning riding bicycle for ever.

It is your choice, your loss.

Look - AP is partnership between man and machine. You do your part of learning the system first and be observant while driving (no need to be extra vigilant once you understand the nuances). The machine will do its part. And the partnership will be highly rewarding.

 

[Electroman]

Unless new owners dive deep and actually read a critical thread about AP,

When bought my first Tesla 4 years ago (AP1) , there was very little content for me to read, except a few posts in here.

I bought and then drove with extra caution, just observing keenly how the system drives and then gradually got more confidence on where it does an excellent job and where it is confused. It took me 3 weeks and 1000 miles of driving in AP to use it with ease.

It has never let me down. The two situations you mention happen to me too, every day. But I am enjoying and loving it everyday, whereas you are bitter and complaining and losing out on an amazing feature.

Thats the difference.

 

[Travelhead]

I think you guys are misinterpreting my intentions. Yes, the title of the thread is clickbaity, but the issue is very serious.

The two situations you mention happen to me too, every day. But I am enjoying and loving it everyday, whereas you are bitter and complaining and losing out on an amazing feature.

Thats the difference.

As a new Tesla customer, you want me to just sit back and not say anything when you acknowledge the 2 issues I mentioned happens to you "EVERY DAY"!?

I'm not one to just sit back and stay silent.

That's the difference, brah.

 

[quickstrike12]

in both my examples I’ve used autopilot on a freeway and highway as instructed by the user manual.

it’s funny how some people in this thread are defending this technology even though both examples I gave were also experienced by others and can definitely endanger passenger safety.

I think the tesla community needs to stop this BS idealism that autopilot works when used as directed, that is NON-SENSE. It is clearly not working in the two example I provided when used as instructed by the Tesla manual.

tesla just purchased an auto pilot technology company probably because they realized how bad autopilot is in its current state.

honestly as a new tesla owner (just over 1 month), I am SHOCKED at the hyperbole of the Tesla “autopilot” fanatics versus the reality of what autopilot is actually capable of.. you guys are SETTING THE WRONG EXPECTATIONS for new owners!

Did you not try it before you bought it? And did you buy the car for the AP? Maybe you should take it back. I love mine and use AP regularly and understand its limitations. did you ever just sit in your car and watch the older cruise control cars overtake and damn near slam into the car in front of you in the old days? Or did you intervene?

 

[Brian's ReX]

Lordy. People that set their expectations via YouTube, or the Googleator are just setting themselves up for failure - or at the very least, a very unpleasant experience.

I learned the limitations of AP through VERY CAREFUL use. Couple that with as much understanding as I could muster about the ability and LIMITATIONS of AP... and you have a very satisfied customer.

Is it perfect? A resounding "no". However, as others have stated... it's almost flawless about 90% of the time. It is up to you, the driver, to understand the remaining 10% and learn how to adapt.

If anyone thinks we are going to go from zero vehicle intelligence directly to a fully self driving car is deluding themselves. We are in BETA... please learn what that means.

If anyone is uncomfortable with the performance of AP... I don't think I'm alone in asking them to minimize their usage and keep us all safe.