Just today I had to cancel a leftward lane change “to follow route” 3 times in a row because my right turn was literally the next intersection
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Why is lane shifting so hard to figure out?
- Thread starter TjckTock
- Start date
It is odd that the nav tells you in plenty of time which lane to be in. FSD seems clueless. FSD should just get the info from the nav like a human would. If FSD sees the nav is wrong it can then try to correct its position but this would create fewer mistakes than FSD trying to figure everything out all by itself.
Yeah, that is another thing that make this so annoying. If I cancel a lane change it should take the hint and not immediately try again. What's the point of having a "Cancel" option if it is just going to keep trying. However, this is almost understandable if FSD thinks that is the only way to get there. Fix the lane issue and the impotence of the Cancel is less an issue.
Not depending Tesla, but I have noticed that the majority of my instances of this occurs when the car is using highway mode. Remember the current release still uses an older version of hwy mode much of the time. I am hoping when Ver 11 is released and they combine both modes it will get better.
My commute is about exactly 50/50 and encounter the issue on both. Up until now, I typically don't engage FSD on the freeway and just use TACC and LA to avoid the issue. Am nervous about the upcoming software merger - I really hope it doesn't take away the LA option. I will be seriously contemplating dropping out of the beta program if it does until they fix the lane issue. LA versus autonomous traffic light detection and the ability to go more than 5 over. Not an easy decision...
CharleyBC
Active Member
Yet another instance of this today. Driving home on FSDß on OR 99. I was in the left of two lanes. It suddenly announced "Changing lanes to follow route" and moved to the right lane. There was no need for this: both lanes continued for several miles from that point. And then ironically after those several miles, it legitimately moved back to the left to follow the route. What was it thinking?
In another instance, it also changed left when it was 0.1 miles from a planned right turn. I was in no hurry, so I let it go, figuring we'd miss the turn, given busy traffic. But it quickly turned on the right blinker, and a kind soul slowed down to let us back over in time, probably figuring there was an idiot at the wheel.
In another instance, it also changed left when it was 0.1 miles from a planned right turn. I was in no hurry, so I let it go, figuring we'd miss the turn, given busy traffic. But it quickly turned on the right blinker, and a kind soul slowed down to let us back over in time, probably figuring there was an idiot at the wheel.
One of the neural networks is called the "Planner" which handles decisions on lane change, when to turn, etc. The planner has not been optimized or trained well since its creation a few versions ago. It's something Tesla claims they are aware and working on, so we'll see how the updates improve as time goes on.
On a recent drive my wife was following me on a 4 lane divided rural road with almost no traffic. When we reached out destination her 1st words were "What were all the back and forth signals and lane changes" While traveling 55 mph with no one in front of me the car kept signaling and changing back and forth between the right lane and the left lane.
clydeiii
Member
CharleyBC
Active Member
With artificial intelligence perhaps comes artificial emotions or feelings. Maybe the computer gets bored in one lane, and changes lanes to amuse itself. Just because it can. Sort of like when we get bored we pull out our cell phones.
Most of them, other than the freeway lane change, are all evidence of what I've been saying for months. AP + FSDb needs better routing maps and to use them. Its attempting to use AI/ML models for everything, but ones which have to figure out everything from a second of visual input at a time and no memory.
Every other autodriving company will use maps heavily because they know all relevant information isn't in visual input, and even that information which is there humans can better extract it, humans understand traffic and road design better, and humans usually drive confidently on routes they've used before and know intuitively the best lanes/routes to be in. Humans have maps in their brain.
The use of maps would be to measure what humans actually do to drive routes to go to the same place that you're going to. Tesla only needs to instrument the human driven fleet. It would know that 98% of people who needed to make that left turn would be in the left most lane by a certain distance. The maps would give a 'target route' to take which the autodriver would attempt to follow, but of course prioritizing safety above all.
Of course it's necessary for the AI to work reasonably well when no maps are available, or they're obsolete, but that's a different issue. 99% of the time, they would cover the routes 99% of humans want to go to.
I suspect the lack of maps is an ideological opposition from the CEO given what he has tweeted about them.
The lane change being aborted on the freeway is most likely because it detected a car behind you which looked like it might be moving into the space or accelerating into it. The code is very conservative, overly so, and aborts too easily in my opinion. The Navigate On Autopilot (which does this, not FSDb) doesn't understand the concept of changing lanes while accelerating out of the way. It is either change lanes at exact speed, or accelerate in lane, not simultaneously, which is what humans would often do.
It seems like it might have gotten a *little* better since I started this thread (about 3 updates later - currently on 10.69.2.3) but still a problem. I wish Tesla would add, as an interim solution, a "lane lock" option where, if I manually initiate a lane change, it locks in and wont change lanes (essentially enters LA mode) until I reengage FSDbeta. Or even just give us a LA option like we have on the highway that we can choose to use instead of FSD for certain segments.
I like FSD Beta, but some quirks need a lot of patience. As of Dec 2022, with FSD including the current 10.96.3.1, still frequently "moving out of the right hand lane" on non-expressway 4 lane roads (2 lanes each way), with no one in front of me in right hand lane. I no longer use FSD with anyone else in car on the non-expressway 4 lane roads, since I am constantly fighting the system. I have speed set to 10% over speed limit. As others noted in other threads, the action occurs even when someone is approaching from behind in the left lane. The larger issue is that the car tries to automatically move to the left lane, and I have to cancel using the turn signal quickly to stop the action. I always use the setting whereby I have to confirm the lane change, which works on expressways, but the car changes lanes without confirmation on non-expressway multi-lane roads. The car should not change lanes without my confirmation, but it happens all the time with both "moving out of right hand lane" and "changing lane to follow route" (when a lane change is not needed for many miles or never). It is a bug, not a feature, not related to exits, merge lanes, or other explanations, sometimes at least a mile before any intersection or road change of any kind. In my Model Y, I have been dealing with it for 20,000 miles over the past year. I have announced "Bug Report" more times than I can count. I keep hoping it will be fixed with next update. I am hoping someone at Tesla looks at these forums. (I still use FSD a lot, including Miami to Seattle round trip and 3 round trips from Miami to Maryland thus far in 2022, but keep hoping the system will improve more quickly relative to these types of quirks.)
Yeah this is extremely annoying. Hopefully the autopilot and FSD beta merge in v11 shows improvement.
It is impossible to drive well without maps. As humans, we drive well in areas we know because we have an HD map of our town stored in our head. We change lanes based on prior experience. If you try to lane select based on just pure vision and analysis of surroundings, you will often be wrong. Lane markings are not common enough to fix this.
Lane selection (at least the way Tesla is trying to approach the problem) is actually arguably the most difficult part of achieving FSD. Say for example you have a right turn coming up in half a mile. A lane on the far right side just appeared, but you can’t see far enough ahead to know if it is the lane for your turn. If you had an HD map, you would know that this lane ends before your turn. But because you are a Tesla and don’t have an HD map, you enter the lane only to realize that this lane ends. You then piss off all the local drivers who expected you to know that the lane ended. See, it’s complicated.
In short, a self-driving car will need good, possibly HD, maps. That’s just how it is. I don’t note why Tesla thinks they can tackle this problem using pure vision.
Lane selection (at least the way Tesla is trying to approach the problem) is actually arguably the most difficult part of achieving FSD. Say for example you have a right turn coming up in half a mile. A lane on the far right side just appeared, but you can’t see far enough ahead to know if it is the lane for your turn. If you had an HD map, you would know that this lane ends before your turn. But because you are a Tesla and don’t have an HD map, you enter the lane only to realize that this lane ends. You then piss off all the local drivers who expected you to know that the lane ended. See, it’s complicated.
In short, a self-driving car will need good, possibly HD, maps. That’s just how it is. I don’t note why Tesla thinks they can tackle this problem using pure vision.
jabloomf1230
Minister of Silly Walks
But people drive in areas where they have no prior familiarity and without consulting a map in real time. How do they change lanes correctly?
On FSD Beta if I am driving on our typical three-lane each direction city streets, the car won’t hop lanes much unless I have a destination designated. As soon as I select a destination it bounces from lane to lane like a drunk, far from the destination. Both of our cars behave similarly so consequently I rarely enter a destination when on FSD Beta. Crazy behavior and it has been consistently bad for the year I have had Beta on both cars.
Except this isn't what it is doing. It is in the correct right turn lane about to turn right in 100 feet and decides to move into the left lane. Agreed some complicated scenarios exist but FSD is failing on very simple lane choices. All of this would be very tolerable if only the FSD beta gave us the option to confirm lane changes.
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