Why is Tesla trying to talk me OUT of purchasing the Twin Charger package?

[Benjamin Brooks]

I have yet to see anywhere near 240V on 80A, while 240V on a Nema 14-50 is pretty common. My personal experience is the higher the load, the more the voltage drop is in most locations(even if the wire gauge is to within code).

My HPWC can consistently hit 80A and stay between 247-250V. I'm a happy 20kW camper :biggrin:

 

[Puyallup Bill]

Sorry to jump way back, but I just read the page 5 post by 100thMonkey. Hit the nail on the head. Just completed several days traveling in northern WA and southern BC, and those dual chargers were a blessing. Roadster HPC, high Amp L2 EVSEs by the north central WA group, and the Sun Country Highway in Canada put the duals to good use.

 

[Lloyd]

Yes, as Brianman noted, the single charger is limited to 40A, regardless of voltage*. Tesla uses 250Vx40A = 10kW for their numbers, but you only will see 10kW if you are at 250V. At 200V you will only see 8kW. On the flip side, if you happened to be able to connect to a 277V source, you would see 11kW. At home, I see about 246V, so my numbers there are very close to those quoted by Tesla but at public charging stations, I typically see about 195V-205V.


Brianman, yes, you can replace HPWC with J1772. A J1772 providing up to 40A (almost all tend to be limited at 30A), will appear identical to cars with single or dual chargers. One's that provide above 40A will allow cars with dual chargers to make use the the extra power available above 40A.

Peter




* limit of 20A at 120V

There is a voltage limit also at 252 to 255 volts so you would never see 11 kw with the single charger.

 

[ElSupreme]

This is total speculation on my part but I noticed this down sell technique ...

I'm not sure it is really 'sell down' per say. But I think Tesla sales people are supposed to encourage whatever configuration you are leaning towards.

So if you say skeptically of the two chargers "I am not sure about these twin chargers. Not sure if I would be able to use them. Do you think they are worth the money?" one would get a response stating the second charger isn't all that useful. But a nice to have.

If you say approvingly of the idea of two chargers "I am not sure about these twin chargers. I really like the idea of charging fast, but are there places to use them? And is it worth $1500 to get the second one?" one would get an answer stating there are plenty of places, and more to come. And that $1500 is a small price to pay for the comfort of being able to charge fast.

I noticed a sale person singing the praises of leather. Then stating to me they preferred the textile, and that it was the nicest textile he had seen in a car.

When I sold bikes at REI (non-commission) I would key in on what people wanted, and then tried to sell them that ... so long as it wasn't crap, too expensive (because they would only ride the bike twice before letting it rot in their garage), or was the wrong type of bike.

 

[qwk]

14-50s are wired to 208V sources all the time. There is nothing incorrect in having a 14-50R wired to a 208V source. You will see this at almost all commercial establishments that are fed by three phase power. All 14-50s at Tesla stores I have ever seen have always been 208V along with some RV parks.

If you have a single charger and you have an HPWC set to >40A and a 14-50 next to it, other than small voltage drops under load due to wire sizing, there will be no difference in charging between them
Peter

I guess if one goes to Tesla stores or service centers to bum free electrons, or one is on your frequently traveled route, then the dual chargers may help for now. Tesla is starting to outfit service centers with superchargers, so that a dual charger advantage is not going to last for long.

A 14-50 next to a HPWC? About the only place I can see finding that scenario apart from an owners home, is a Tesla store or service center.

Like I said, as long as your expectations are realistic, which seldom means charging at a full double rate of a single charger, one by all means should get the dual charger.

 

[100thMonkey]

I'm not sure it is really 'sell down' per say. But I think Tesla sales people are supposed to encourage whatever configuration you are leaning towards.

So if you say skeptically of the two chargers "I am not sure about these twin chargers. Not sure if I would be able to use them. Do you think they are worth the money?" one would get a response stating the second charger isn't all that useful. But a nice to have.

If you say approvingly of the idea of two chargers "I am not sure about these twin chargers. I really like the idea of charging fast, but are there places to use them? And is it worth $1500 to get the second one?" one would get an answer stating there are plenty of places, and more to come. And that $1500 is a small price to pay for the comfort of being able to charge fast.

I noticed a sale person singing the praises of leather. Then stating to me they preferred the textile, and that it was the nicest textile he had seen in a car.

When I sold bikes at REI (non-commission) I would key in on what people wanted, and then tried to sell them that ... so long as it wasn't crap, too expensive (because they would only ride the bike twice before letting it rot in their garage), or was the wrong type of bike.

I like the way apple approaches it, rather than try and figure out what people think they want and deliver that, figure out what they don't yet know they will be delighted with and include it. I think the twin chargers should be standard, it's in the don't know you don't know yet category and a super buzz kill to discover after the fact.

 

[jerry33]

1. Will Twin Chargers benefit me (charge faster) if I pull into a Tesla Service Center for a charge?
Maybe, depends on what charging options are available. Most just have 14-50 so only a single charger would be involed..

2. I understand the Super Charging stations bypass the onboard charger, but what about CHAdeMO? Will I benefit there with the Twin Chargers?
No, they bypass the chargers too.

3. I'm not a traveling salesman, and when I come home I usually stay home - so no real benefit at home above regular over night charging.
Correct.

4. I think some of you may say, hey, if money is no concern then get it... however I don't like to throw $$ away.
Twin chargers benefit any EVSE that is A/C and over 40 amps. Right now there are only a few places (like Sun Country) that have this kind of EVSE network. However, today is not tomorrow. Many first generation Leaf owners purchased their Leaf without the high power port because there weren't any around then. Now they are regretting not getting them because there are quite a few. Of course you can always have a twin charger installed later, but it's twice the price as getting it installed at the factory. And there will be many routes that don't have either Superchargers or CHAdeMO for many years to come.

 

[Seven7]

I was also told not to get the twin chargers or HPWC by sales as well, but I got them anyway. Sales also told me not to get the "+" package or the pearl white paint, I followed their advice and am glad I did. ( I don't have anything against the + package, just live in an area where there are no twisting roads )

 

[Puyallup Bill]

I don't think this has been mentioned before, but maybe Tesla is getting into the high power L2 EVSE picture.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-ready-to-roll-out-a-Level-2-Charging-Network

 

[Cottonwood]

I am working on getting 70 and 80 Amp J1772's in the 4-Corners area that Tesla is not supporting with Superchargers. See 4 Corners EV Charging. Tesla is offering free HPWC's to businesses. Service Centers have HPWC's that will provide 80 Amps. I've heard that you talk Tesla into taking the HPWC back. Even if you can't do that, you can probably get $1,000 for a new HPWC. All you need is a 14-50 at home.

Get the twin chargers! Charging at 50-56 mph vs 25-28 mph will be a real pleasure in the future.

Enjoy your new Model S!

 

[Puyallup Bill]

I've heard that you talk Tesla into taking the HPWC back. Even if you can't do that, you can probably get $1,000 for a new HPWC.

Following is a response I received when I recommended unbundling. Also, the duals and HPWC are not bundled for Canadians.

Hi William,

I received your note this morning regarding our new option to bundle the High Power Wall Connector and Twin Charger feature.

We made this decision in clarify for customers the benefit Twin Charger feature offers, and what it requires. Fortunately, under the circumstance that a customer cannot install the Wall Connector, we will accept a return of the device. This is the only work around we have currently, but I’ll investigate if we can add the Twin Charger into the configuration manually, without addition of the Wall Connector.

Thanks for sending us the suggestion. If you have any other questions, feel free to contact me.


Best Regards,
William Masterson | Ownership Experience Advocate
3500 Deer Creek Rd. | Palo Alto, CA 94304
p 877.79.TESLA (877.798.3752) | e [email protected]

 

[andrewket]

Excuse me, taking part of my sentence out of context is very misleading. Perhaps you should both read and quote my full sentence before calling me out.

My full sentence read: "Unfortunately, the rep you were talking to didn't understand that even his chargers downstairs require twin chargers to fully utilize them. Without twin chargers you will be waiting almost twice as long to charge up at his chargers too."


Furthermore, regardless of voltage, you are incorrectly calculating your numbers. If you show up at an HPWC that can provide 208V at 80A:

With a single charger, you will charge at about 8,320W, or about 27 miles and hour.
With dual chargers, will be charging at 16,640 W, or about 55 miles an hour.

This is most definitely about twice as long.

Peter

This is correct. Each charger maxes out at 40A, regardless of voltage. Assuming the EVSE can supply 80A, twin chargers will always charge twice as fast as one.

 

[100thMonkey]

...
Get the twin chargers! Charging at 50-56 mph vs 25-28 mph will be a real pleasure in the future...

I've seen as high as 63 mph of added range, the difference is very impressive!

the one other advantage I have not heard mentioned about the twin chargers is that I can now routinely leave the battery in it's happy place of 50%, knowing that if I get a call or something comes up unexpectedly, I can top up the battery pretty darn fast. One of my goals is to get top performance out of the battery for as long as possible. I've done this with quite a lot of consumer electronics and it can make a huge difference in terms of longevity and overall performance so until someone can prove to me otherwise, I'm assuming the same approach will prove fruitful with the batteries in the S.

 

[brianman]

the one other advantage I have not heard mentioned about the twin chargers is that I can now routinely leave the battery in it's happy place of 50%, knowing that if I get a call or something comes up unexpectedly, I can top up the battery pretty darn fast

Also, as I recently became keenly aware of ...
If you're charging faster that means you can unplug faster when, say, a storm comes through and you want to leave your car unplugged while the grid is twitching.

 

[Electric1]

Sorry to jump way back, but I just read the page 5 post by 100thMonkey. Hit the nail on the head. Just completed several days traveling in northern WA and southern BC, and those dual chargers were a blessing. Roadster HPC, high Amp L2 EVSEs by the north central WA group, and the Sun Country Highway in Canada put the duals to good use.

Agreed. 100th is spot on. My only further consideration is (after >20 k miles) is that this is likely a car that will last you a very long time into the uncertain, and, with respect and credit to Dr. Moore, in a world of exponentially growing technology and infrastructure. I doubt that you will regret the upfront purchase, but respect your acceptance of the cost trade off of adding later. Good luck and enjoy, as there is no wrong answer off the ct is a model s.

 

[ckessel]

FWIW, I didn't get the 2nd charger because there would be almost no reason for me to use it. I5 is already now covered from BC to Mexico. There's nowhere I travel long distances that isn't SC enabled at this point. It's likely I'd use the 2nd charger somewhere at some point, but I'd be spending hundreds of dollars per hour of time saved. No where even remotely worth it.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

With more than 20,000 EV miles I have YET to find a charging station above 30 amps (6.6 kw) in Tennessee, NC, KY, Missouri or VA. They may exist in some mythical land but I have not found them and I have looked.

As others have noted SuperCharging and CHAdeMO bypass the on board cbarger.

You'll find 70-80A charging at most Tesla galleries and service centers. Having that second charger has saved me hours of waiting at the Boston service center.

 

[Crispix]

They aren't on commission. They're really trying to do what's best without any other motive. So in this rep's mind, the second charger is a low priority and unnecessary extra cost for the majority of MS buyers. (I happen to agree with him, but that's not the point.)

So I think that answers the question of "why" -- whether they should be upselling or downselling options or not is a conversation for another thread.

 

[lloyds]

They aren't on commission. They're really trying to do what's best without any other motive. So in this rep's mind, the second charger is a low priority and unnecessary extra cost for the majority of MS buyers. (I happen to agree with him, but that's not the point.)

So I think that answers the question of "why" -- whether they should be upselling or downselling options or not is a conversation for another thread.

That's right. Here in California it's not much of an issue for faster charging since the SC network is growing rapidly.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I can now routinely leave the battery in it's happy place of 50%, knowing that if I get a call or something comes up unexpectedly, I can top up the battery pretty darn fast. One of my goals is to get top performance out of the battery for as long as possible. I've done this with quite a lot of consumer electronics and it can make a huge difference in terms of longevity and overall performance so until someone can prove to me otherwise, I'm assuming the same approach will prove fruitful with the batteries in the S.

^^ this!