Why is the model Y the red headed step child of Tesla?

[DanDi58]

Since when is being on an actual racetrack necessary for track mode? Hell, the vast majority of performance cars with "track mode" never see a race track during their entire lifetime. The idea is this 'expert' modes allow you to turn off as many nannies as possible and have some freaking fun. Not everybody wants to drive a robot.

Stop apologizing for Tesla. It's a Performance car and heavily advertised as such. It should come with a high-performance mode where it's allowed to cut loose more than the non-Performance variants. Hell one of the first thing I did after buying my Vette was turn off the traction control and get it sideways coming out the driveway. Huge.. huge smile afterward.

Yeah, I've seen lots of Mustangs leaving 'Cars and Coffee' meetings that have their version of Track Mode obviously off....

And where have you seen the Model Y 'heavily advertised'?

 

[blinkme323]

Since when is being on an actual racetrack necessary for track mode? Hell, the vast majority of performance cars with "track mode" never see a race track during their entire lifetime. The idea is this 'expert' modes allow you to turn off as many nannies as possible and have some freaking fun. Not everybody wants to drive a robot.

Stop apologizing for Tesla. It's a Performance car and heavily advertised as such. It should come with a high-performance mode where it's allowed to cut loose more than the non-Performance variants. Hell one of the first thing I did after buying my Vette was turn off the traction control and get it sideways coming out the driveway. Huge.. huge smile afterward.

 

[z335is]

I think a big problem is that the majority of people that buy the Model Y come from cars like the Toyota Prius. And I’m not making that up, the overwhelming leader for previous car before the Y is the Prius and that’s documented in the order tracking spreadsheet.

So I doubt people from Prius’s care about track mode, which is prob why we haven’t seen it yet. As others have said though, it should 100% be on the MYP. No reason for the omission.

 

[Yelobird]

Just a guess but with the weight and power of the car they would have a mountain of false warranty claims. All users upset because they received a track mode button and broke the car and it should be covered. Yes they tried it before and my guess is they Learned from that mistake. Just an opinion.

 

[Fourdoor]

Just a guess but with the weight and power of the car they would have a mountain of false warranty claims. All users upset because they received a track mode button and broke the car and it should be covered. Yes they tried it before and my guess is they Learned from that mistake. Just an opinion.

What do you mean they learned their lesson? The M3P has track mode, and so does the Model S plaid (heavier and more powerful)... if they "learned their lesson" those cars wouldn't have track mode.

Keith

 

[jackmott]

I agree that you don’t have to be on a track to use “track mode”. There is also a huge difference between a Corvette and a Model Y. They work really differently. There is the Traction Control System (TCS), Anti-lock Braking System (ABS), Stability Control System or Electronic Stability Control (SCS/ESC), Advance Driving Assistance System (ADAS) for things like launch control and autonomous controls. Some cars allow you to turn off TCS, ABS, and ESC. The issue with these on an EV compared to an ICE vehicle are due to the drivetrain differences and also how they use them. Without TCS and ESC on a Tesla, the wheels don’t know how much power needs to be sent to maintain stability or traction. On something like the Model S Plaid with over 1000 BHP, you could just be spinning the wheels and not getting enough friction to grab the road and go. On traditional ICE vehicles that are RR, MR, or FF, power is only getting sent to the rear wheels or the front wheels in a very analog fashion. AWD and 4WD need specific mechanical or electronic system to regulate which wheels need power. On an EV, the AWD needs to do all of this digitally so there is not analog method. Teslas depend on TCS, ESC, and ABS to regulate its acceleration and braking. Track mode still has these features on but tweak them to feel “looser”. While Tesla could potentially do a higher initial torque, without the TCS, you’ll end up spinning out. It’s one of the reasons why a Model S Plaid has a crazy time for the Nurburgring straight out of the factory with no track mode turned on. While I admit, it’s really fun to drive without any of the systems on an ICE vehicle, doing so on an EV would be a lot more difficult.

The only thing that has to be done digitally is the power split front to rear, and there would be nothing wrong with having it be "dumb", and you wouldn't "spin out" any more than you would in a corvette. In some ways it is all easier to control as the power delivery is more predictable.

Source: Have actually raced corvettes and tesla

 

[Daekwan]

In some ways it is all easier to control as the power delivery is more predictable.

Which is exactly the point of "track mode". When the computer is too involved, the vehicle is too limited and/or making its own set of corrections.. which may not be exactly what the driver is expecting to happen.

 

[Whtrbt7]

The only thing that has to be done digitally is the power split front to rear, and there would be nothing wrong with having it be "dumb", and you wouldn't "spin out" any more than you would in a corvette. In some ways it is all easier to control as the power delivery is more predictable.

Source: Have actually raced corvettes and tesla

Electric motors have a much more linear power production which is why without the electronic TCS and ESC systems activated, it would be extremely tough to get traction. On higher powered vehicles, the reason why they have ADAS for stuff like launch control is because most consumers have a hard time feathering the accelerator in order to get enough grip to accelerate well from a stop. If you turn off TCS and ESC completely on a Tesla, it would be extremely difficult to drive, hence the Track mode just minimizes the amount of TCS before it kicks back in during a drift. It’s also the reason why if you’re going around a track in a Model 3 Performance with track mode on, it’s hard to control the drift the same way a corvette FR would be able to control the drift. I think the track mode is more for an oval track, rather than an actual raceway with hairpins and other challenging turns.

 

[Fourdoor]

Electric motors have a much more linear power production which is why without the electronic TCS and ESC systems activated, it would be extremely tough to get traction. On higher powered vehicles, the reason why they have ADAS for stuff like launch control is because most consumers have a hard time feathering the accelerator in order to get enough grip to accelerate well from a stop. If you turn off TCS and ESC completely on a Tesla, it would be extremely difficult to drive, hence the Track mode just minimizes the amount of TCS before it kicks back in during a drift. It’s also the reason why if you’re going around a track in a Model 3 Performance with track mode on, it’s hard to control the drift the same way a corvette FR would be able to control the drift. I think the track mode is more for an oval track, rather than an actual raceway with hairpins and other challenging turns.

So... you are saying that something with linear power delivery is harder to control than something with non-linear power delivery.

Interesting perspective,

Keith

 

[Yelobird]

What do you mean they learned their lesson? The M3P has track mode, and so does the Model S plaid (heavier and more powerful)... if they "learned their lesson" those cars wouldn't have track mode.

Keith

Meaning, the Model 3 came before the Y and the Plaid owners are already reporting drive line issues granted the S has a 50% plus premium price and proper suspension so likely not that big of a concern. Just my opinion.

 

[jjrandorin]

Since when is being on an actual racetrack necessary for track mode? Hell, the vast majority of performance cars with "track mode" never see a race track during their entire lifetime. The idea is this 'expert' modes allow you to turn off as many nannies as possible and have some freaking fun. Not everybody wants to drive a robot.

Stop apologizing for Tesla. It's a Performance car and heavily advertised as such. It should come with a high-performance mode where it's allowed to cut loose more than the non-Performance variants. Hell one of the first thing I did after buying my Vette was turn off the traction control and get it sideways coming out the driveway. Huge.. huge smile afterward.

The track mode in a model 3 does not "turn off the nannies" so they already dont offer that.

 

[Whtrbt7]

So... you are saying that something with linear power delivery is harder to control than something with non-linear power delivery.

Interesting perspective,

Keith

I’m probably not explaining it right. Teslas use an AC induction motor which means that the voltage doesn’t control the speed like on a brushed DC motor. It’s a brushless motor which means that it’s extremely efficient in transforming electrical current to active force. About 85% is converted directly into torque as soon as it powers on. The other 15% is lost to heat and other inefficiencies. To make the AC induction motor increase or decrease in speed, you need a variable frequency controller (electronic controller) in order to increase or decrease the speed. Depending on how many phases the motor operates at, it will create the RPMs by alternating the phases with the alternating current (AC). This method means that there is tremendous force as soon as the motor is activated and the accelerator controls only the frequency of the AC current. So to give you an example of how the power is applied, grab a brushless lithium ion hammer drill and attach the end to a piece of rebar in a large cement block. Crank the setting to drill (max speed) and then hold the drill tight. Press down on the trigger all the way and hope it doesn’t rip off your arm. Now compare the size of the brushless lithium ion drill to the Tesla AC induction motor. Multiply the force you felt by the magnitude difference between the two. That’s the amount of force you are dealing with. So yes, linear power can be quite hard to control.

 

[Fourdoor]

I’m probably not explaining it right. Teslas use an AC induction motor which means that the voltage doesn’t control the speed like on a brushed DC motor. It’s a brushless motor which means that it’s extremely efficient in transforming electrical current to active force. About 85% is converted directly into torque as soon as it powers on. The other 15% is lost to heat and other inefficiencies. To make the AC induction motor increase or decrease in speed, you need a variable frequency controller (electronic controller) in order to increase or decrease the speed. Depending on how many phases the motor operates at, it will create the RPMs by alternating the phases with the alternating current (AC). This method means that there is tremendous force as soon as the motor is activated and the accelerator controls only the frequency of the AC current. So to give you an example of how the power is applied, grab a brushless lithium ion hammer drill and attach the end to a piece of rebar in a large cement block. Crank the setting to drill (max speed) and then hold the drill tight. Press down on the trigger all the way and hope it doesn’t rip off your arm. Now compare the size of the brushless lithium ion drill to the Tesla AC induction motor. Multiply the force you felt by the magnitude difference between the two. That’s the amount of force you are dealing with. So yes, linear power can be quite hard to control.

I have bolded and made red the most important part of your paragraph. You are in control of your right foot and how far down you press the accelerator. If you have only lived in a world of traction control and stability control systems I guess you might not have developed fine motor control of your right foot... I grew up in a world of analog RWD cars with throttle by cable, not throttle by wire. Later in life I fell in love with AWD cars and I daily drove cars much more powerful than my MYP with no traction control system other than a computer controlled active center differential.

Anyway, I fell that a small ICE engine with a huge turbo and a VERY non-linear power curve is more challenging.

Keith

 

[Whtrbt7]

I have bolded and made red the most important part of your paragraph. You are in control of your right foot and how far down you press the accelerator. If you have only lived in a world of traction control and stability control systems I guess you might not have developed fine motor control of your right foot... I grew up in a world of analog RWD cars with throttle by cable, not throttle by wire. Later in life I fell in love with AWD cars and I daily drove cars much more powerful than my MYP with no traction control system other than a computer controlled active center differential.

Anyway, I fell that a small ICE engine with a huge turbo and a VERY non-linear power curve is more challenging.

Keith

Without TCS and ESC on a Tesla it’s basically an on/off toggle switch is what I’m trying to say. It’s either 100% or 0%. If the brushless drill doesn’t have a variable speed trigger and only a toggle trigger, it’s the same 0% to 100% within an instant. While it’s linear, it’s basically a light switch and functions as a Boolean value. On ICE cars, back in the day when TCS , ABS, and ESC didn’t exist, you would be able to feather the accelerator and brakes to control traction and turn while braking. It takes a lot of skill to do so however especially if you’re a rally racer with a FR setup.

With the large turbo on a small engine, you get an inverse logorithmic power control. It makes it harder to get up to speed on a straightaway and with the turbo lag, if you’re drifting through a corner, you need to time it so you get power on the end of the drift/turn so you can get traction to come out of the drift. With TCS and ESC, when you do get the power, it can be feathered in vs a lot all at once which would give a lot of slip on the tires which would spin you out on the corner.

 

[Fourdoor]

Without TCS and ESC on a Tesla it’s basically an on/off toggle switch is what I’m trying to say. It’s either 100% or 0%. If the brushless drill doesn’t have a variable speed trigger and only a toggle trigger, it’s the same 0% to 100% within an instant. While it’s linear, it’s basically a light switch and functions as a Boolean value. On ICE cars, back in the day when TCS , ABS, and ESC didn’t exist, you would be able to feather the accelerator and brakes to control traction and turn while braking. It takes a lot of skill to do so however especially if you’re a rally racer with a FR setup.

With the large turbo on a small engine, you get an inverse logorithmic power control. It makes it harder to get up to speed on a straightaway and with the turbo lag, if you’re drifting through a corner, you need to time it so you get power on the end of the drift/turn so you can get traction to come out of the drift. With TCS and ESC, when you do get the power, it can be feathered in vs a lot all at once which would give a lot of slip on the tires which would spin you out on the corner.

You think that the accelerator pedal in a Tesla is an on / off switch and the only thing rescuing us from death and destruction is traction control... Funny, I don't get thrown back in my seat when I only press the accelerator part way down, it is almost like the accelerator in my car acts like it is a linear rheostat rather than an on / off switch. I am glad I don't have an on / off switch like you have in your car! How do you even drive without crashing?

Believe what you like, it doesn't change reality and I can't convince you otherwise... so good luck with that.

Keith

 

[Daekwan]

You think that the accelerator pedal in a Tesla is an on / off switch and the only thing rescuing us from death and destruction is traction control... Funny, I don't get thrown back in my seat when I only press the accelerator part way down, it is almost like the accelerator in my car acts like it is a linear rheostat rather than an on / off switch. I am glad I don't have an on / off switch like you have in your car! How do you even drive without crashing?

Believe what you like, it doesn't change reality and I can't convince you otherwise... so good luck with that.

Keith

One of the most amazing things about the Tesla drivetrain is how precise you can be with the power. I was stuck in traffic the other day due to an accident and was absolutely amazed how I could creep along at exactly 1mph. Not feathering a brake pedal either. Using the accelerator only I was able to go exactly 1mph for as long as I kept my foot steady.. even tried 2mph pressing down the tiniest bit more.. and exact same thing. They have absolutely nailed the drivetrain.

 

[TomServo]

I tracked my vette’s at HSDE’s and can tell you as an AMATEUR I would never turn OFF the safety Nannie’s, I did once and survived the 180 spin on turn 14 at Road America. After that they protected by ass, my vette and my ego. I learned I wasn’t REALLY racing. So why risk it. Ultimately I ran over 100 laps at R/A in two different vettes and never got a scratch or broke anything. But I did see several high end performance cars leave on flatbeds. Vipers and Mustangs were the two most wrecked cars.

 

[Fourdoor]

One of the most amazing things about the Tesla drivetrain is how precise you can be with the power. I was stuck in traffic the other day due to an accident and was absolutely amazed how I could creep along at exactly 1mph. Not feathering a brake pedal either. Using the accelerator only I was able to go exactly 1mph for as long as I kept my foot steady.. even tried 2mph pressing down the tiniest bit more.. and exact same thing. They have absolutely nailed the drivetrain.

That is my experience in both of the EV's I own. Rock steady and much better controlled very noticeable when using cruise control as well. In an ICE car the cruise control was usually at the set speed on level ground, but in hilly conditions it was within one or two mph of the set speed... in my Bolt or MYP it is rock steady on the set speed (now that PB is rare in the Tesla). No idea how someone could attribute this characteristic to traction control.

Keith

 

[Fourdoor]

I tracked my vette’s at HSDE’s and can tell you as an AMATEUR I would never turn OFF the safety Nannie’s, I did once and survived the 180 spin on turn 14 at Road America. After that they protected by ass, my vette and my ego. I learned I wasn’t REALLY racing. So why risk it. Ultimately I ran over 100 laps at R/A in two different vettes and never got a scratch or broke anything. But I did see several high end performance cars leave on flatbeds. Vipers and Mustangs were the two most wrecked cars.

I remember reading about the Viper in Magazines when it first came out... it was a wild assed death machine if you tried to push it to it's limits I don't know about the more modern ones, but the original had no traction control or any other safety nannies and it was very common for it to get away from the driver.

Keith

 

[Kuro Houou]

SUV not really ideal for track use, so I'm ok with that one.

Model Y gets a hatch and other perks missing on the M3...

Except its not an SUV, not even close.. Its closer to a car then a SUV... the MYP is also even lower then some cars.