Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Why not buy a Mustang Mach-E?

Sep 23, 2020
480
415
Sacramento CA
Wow, 160+ Tesla bashing messages in three months. I sure wish I had read your posts before buying a Tesla, as I would have definitely bought a Leaf rather than a MS, MY and M3, none of which have ever been "loosey-goosey." o_O
Sorry my friend - if you actually read the posts you would have seen many of them empathize with the other owners who have had similar problems. And even if someone is new to the Tesla world - I wish them the best of luck and hope they will have better luck with their Teslas.

Sounds like you're from Laguna Niguel - just my hunch
 

origingalatic

Member
Jul 18, 2020
247
166
new york
There's arguments for keeping things in-house or not, there is a reason for outsourcing. Lots of variables going into such a decision.

My feeling is that Tesla is having too much of the 'not invented here' syndrome. Tesla's (or Elon's) way is often great but not in all cases. As an example the blind spot monitoring and automatic wiper control, which works way better/more logical on just about every other vehicle out there.

100% agreed. I often feel that some of the designers/engineers at Tesla probably never really owned a car or probably too young to have any real car ownership experience. They tend to complicate things that have been solved over time and simplified by other manufacturers. The wipers and blind spots are perfect examples of that. It seems they are hell bent at reinventing how wipers work and failed miserably
 

rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
2,737
1,954
Orange County, CA
From members' reaction to your postings, I stand by my statement.

Here are just a few of your doozies:
________________________________________________________________________________
"All that really matters these days is if the Tesla can be quickly loaded onto the flatbed." - Dec 14
________________________________________________________________________________
"... Tesla loaner ? No longer exists. As a matter of fact, no loaners or rental vouchers whatsoever. Get ready for a big bushel of Uber credits. I'm not sure how attractive this is during Covid, let alone living a semi-normal life calling for an Uber 3 or 4 times a day." - Oct 19. And there are no loaners or rental vouchers whatsoever?
________________________________________________________________________________
My personal favorite: "... I ask this as a Model S owner who has watched my P85+ start to immolate in a series of electrical failures ... " - Oct 7. So your car caught on fire?

Got Drama Much? Why put yourself through all the torture that Tesla ownership has caused you? Get another Leaf. I hear VW is coming out with a Tesla Killer you might want to consider, too. :rolleyes:

And I'm not from Laguna Niguel. Are you in that Sacramento suburb called Whinerville?
 

E_R_N

Member
Jun 16, 2020
147
118
Vancouver
100% agreed. I often feel that some of the designers/engineers at Tesla probably never really owned a car or probably too young to have any real car ownership experience. They tend to complicate things that have been solved over time and simplified by other manufacturers. The wipers and blind spots are perfect examples of that. It seems they are hell bent at reinventing how wipers work and failed miserably
I don’t get why the wipers being complicated to use always comes up. The entire car can be operated with one button on the steering wheel. Push it and say set wipers to one or two or three or four or turn wipers off to turn them off. How much simpler can it be? Am I missing something?
As for the Mach e, not for me but anyone would be foolishly closed minded not to consider it and see if it suits their situation.
 
Sep 23, 2020
480
415
Sacramento CA
From members' reaction to your postings, I stand by my statement.

Here are just a few of your doozies:
________________________________________________________________________________
"All that really matters these days is if the Tesla can be quickly loaded onto the flatbed." - Dec 14
________________________________________________________________________________
"... Tesla loaner ? No longer exists. As a matter of fact, no loaners or rental vouchers whatsoever. Get ready for a big bushel of Uber credits. I'm not sure how attractive this is during Covid, let alone living a semi-normal life calling for an Uber 3 or 4 times a day." - Oct 19. And there are no loaners or rental vouchers whatsoever?
________________________________________________________________________________
My personal favorite: "... I ask this as a Model S owner who has watched my P85+ start to immolate in a series of electrical failures ... " - Oct 7. So your car caught on fire?

Got Drama Much? Why put yourself through all the torture that Tesla ownership has caused you? Get another Leaf. I hear VW is coming out with a Tesla Killer you might want to consider, too. :rolleyes:

And I'm not from Laguna Niguel. Are you in that Sacramento suburb called Whinerville?
I'm really humbled and flattered you are posting these thoughts to the forum. Never mind you cherry-picked a few examples. But I'll happily stand by everything I say, both positive and negative.

Don't take this forum so seriously. And make sure to mask up down there !
 
Sep 23, 2020
480
415
Sacramento CA
I don’t get why the wipers being complicated to use always comes up. The entire car can be operated with one button on the steering wheel. Push it and say set wipers to one or two or three or four or turn wipers off to turn them off. How much simpler can it be? Am I missing something?
As for the Mach e, not for me but anyone would be foolishly closed minded not to consider it and see if it suits their situation.
E_R_N - I love that open-minded stance. Multiple situations require multiple solutions.
 

psuKinger

Member
Jul 3, 2020
104
101
Pennsylvania
Note that Tesla cars' EPA rating is *inflated* as Tesla does its own testing (Adjustment Factor) trying to milk out additional mileages. See this article - The Adjustment Factor Tesla Uses to Get Its Big EPA Range Numbers.

To all of us Tesla Owners, I have yet to meet a person that got the actual rated range. I'm lucky if I get 80% of the rated range. So as far as range goes, I think the advantage goes to a non-Tesla car assuming similar range. O, don't forget about vampire drain.

Now that was only about the range, Tesla is still much more efficient than Mach E. I believe Mach E uses 37kwh for 100 miles while Model Y uses 27kwh per 100 miles driven. Even with the inflated number and vampire drain, Model Y is still better.

Basically with a full charge, expect similar range between Model Y and Mach E on the long range version, but that's with Mach E having a bigger battery.

This has been hashed and rehashed and rehashed on these forums... but just so we're all clear, the fact that a Tesla's advertised (EPA) range is better than what most of us see "in the real world," is not something that is unique to Tesla. Every car I ever owned was not as fuel-efficient as it's EPA rating.

I bought my MY back in July, and throughout the heat and summer and the mild weather of Fall I was consistently pegged at a lifetime efficiency that bounced back and forth between 244 and 246 wh/mile (~5000 or so Summer/Fall miles). If you assume, what 72.5 kW of "usable" batter, I think that works out to be 296 or so miles of range... this is comparable to what I've experienced with ICE cars in relation to advertised (EPA) efficiencies and capabilities, too... now with winter upon us here in the Northeast, my efficiency has taken a bit of a hit. I'm often pulling in to my house after a work commute, having achieved something closer to 260 or 265 wh/mile, and my lifetime efficiency is slowly creeping up as a result...

But in my experience Tesla's aren't much (any?) more exaggerated than other cars I've owned...
 

hlin07

Member
Mar 5, 2019
168
140
New Jersey
This is true. Tesla uses a Scalar of 0.747 to scale its raw results from the two UDDS and FTP cycles, while Ford uses the traditional 0.7 number. The Model Y uses this 0.747 value, and the 2021 Model 3 a very similar value, and it comes from the heat pump, which gives better performance on the SC03 and FTP 20F cycles. That allows them (per EPA rules) to use that calculated scalar, which folds in those other "5-cycle" results.

EPA range = (0.55*UDDS+0.45*FTP)*Scalar

But please note that the Mach-E does NOT have a heat pump (at least from the first link in my quick Google search). So it will do worse in cold weather than Model Y and 2021 Model 3.

Note that before 2020 Model Y, Model 3 used about 0.703 for the scalar - because it did not have a heat pump. So relatively little inflation due to this factor in prior years.



That's true, but the information on the exact RAW (AC) efficiency is published by the EPA.

Download Fuel Economy Data

Here's the comparison. You can see that in raw (AC) efficiency, the Model Y is about 20% more efficient than the Mach-E AWD. Not the 27% you quoted. This 7% difference is due to the scalar difference of 7%.

View attachment 619586
If you want to dive into the exact DC efficiency differences (which are more relevant for range, but to be honest AC-DC conversion losses (which are about 12% for Tesla) are likely about the same for all manufacturers so don't really need to go there), you have to go to the raw EPA docs: Basic Search | Document Index System | US EPA



This is where I disagree with you. We'll use just Highway numbers here.

After removing the effect of the scalar (scale EPA highway 306 mile Model Y result by 0.7/0.747), the Model Y in optimal no heat pump conditions, would get 287 miles, which is still more than the Mach-E AWD highway result, at 255 miles, before they voluntarily lowered it to 250 miles. (All these numbers are in the spreadsheet linked in the first link.)

So I think the range advantage likely goes to Model Y here. In California range will be close for the two vehicles, and at freeway speeds the difference will be smaller in absolute terms than the 255/287 results from above, because the aero losses will dominate even more than they do in the EPA testing...though the Mach-E seems to do slightly poorly on aero...so absolute range gap might not tighten much (and %-wise it might even be a larger difference).

I'd expect about 230-240 miles max at 80mph for 100% to 0% for Model Y, in optimal conditions. And about 210-215 miles for Mach-E at 80mph in optimal conditions.

But in colder climates, the range advantage I think will very clearly go to Model Y with the heat pump.

And as covered, the efficiency advantage will of course be huge (which is important for charging time, assuming you could even get a 150kW charge for the Mach-E - and 250kW charging is not available). That affects charge time, a lot!



This affects overall wall-to-wheels efficiency, and potentially by a large amount depending on how much you drive, but does not affect your driving range.
Very detailed reply. I could be wrong on the similar range efficiency aspect. I do remember reading articles about Tesla's real world range is inferior compared to competition.
This has been hashed and rehashed and rehashed on these forums... but just so we're all clear, the fact that a Tesla's advertised (EPA) range is better than what most of us see "in the real world," is not something that is unique to Tesla. Every car I ever owned was not as fuel-efficient as it's EPA rating.

I bought my MY back in July, and throughout the heat and summer and the mild weather of Fall I was consistently pegged at a lifetime efficiency that bounced back and forth between 244 and 246 wh/mile (~5000 or so Summer/Fall miles). If you assume, what 72.5 kW of "usable" batter, I think that works out to be 296 or so miles of range... this is comparable to what I've experienced with ICE cars in relation to advertised (EPA) efficiencies and capabilities, too... now with winter upon us here in the Northeast, my efficiency has taken a bit of a hit. I'm often pulling in to my house after a work commute, having achieved something closer to 260 or 265 wh/mile, and my lifetime efficiency is slowly creeping up as a result...

But in my experience Tesla's aren't much (any?) more exaggerated than other cars I've owned...
YMMV, but I do find that ICE cars generally get close to the advertised epa numbers. But then individual driving habit may have something to do with it as well. I know 3 Tesla owners, including me that's 4. None of us get anywhere close to the advertised number, EVEN in summer. When we go on trips, we do an adjustment of 0.75. If Tesla shows 200 miles, we expect to drive 150 miles, that's in summer. In winter, I personally lowered it 0.5.
But that was then, with every update, there's potential to improve existing mileage and 2021s have heat pump which helps us in northeast even more.
There's no reason to debate whether who's right or wrong. Again, YMMV. But I think we can at least agree that Tesla is much more efficient miles per kwh compared to virtually everything else comparable on the market now.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
10,063
12,123
San Diego
I do remember reading articles about Tesla's real world range is inferior compared to competition.

Depends on which manufacturer you are comparing to. This is a narrow comparison to the Mach-E. The EPA spreadsheet can be used to get a pretty good idea of where things will land relative to other manufacturers; it varies - some manufacturers have very efficient vehicles. There is also the question of how much "buffer" other manufacturers provide. If they provide less than 4.5% lower buffer, then their real world results could look better, unless the comparison test in question drives until the car stops moving (they're rarely done this way).
 

Hoowzer

Member
Sep 22, 2020
234
111
SF Bay
You take it seriously enough to state your MS burned up (IMMOLATED).
And masking compliance is pretty good in my part of OC.


Gotta love the hypocrisy of some of the folks on this forum.

"I hate tesla!"
"My tesla sucks, so all teslas suck"
"My (insert last car) never had issues"

And yet, at the end of the day they're back behind their keyboards back on this forum. :rolleyes:
 

Lasairfion

Member
Jul 24, 2018
497
541
UK
Tesla isn't perfect, and I agree that they need to up their game for customer service. Likewise they have had some quality issues that are likely coming from being such a new company; however I'm a firm believer that a lot of these issues (such as the Model 3 wheel-well that Sandy Munro lambasted) are being solved by going back to first principles as seen with the new Gigapress, rather than adopting methodologies used by other car companies. I'm fairly confident that the AI windscreen wipers are intended to improve rapidly, much like the FSD, and will therefore end up surpassing the level of accuracy from other solutions given time (and at no extra cost to the consumer for that one). I'm also fairly sure that when Giga Berlin opens we'll see some real car-building talent move to Tesla that will increase quality immensely.

I am very happy to see other manufacturers producing decent products that can and will compete, especially over this side of the pond where I can't remember the last time I did a 200 mile journey. There will be some competitive advantages that will help push Tesla to up its game and that's no bad thing.

At the end of the day we know that Tesla simply cannot manufacture enough vehicles on their own to move transport to a sustainable future in any decent space of time. So vive la revolution and bring on as many decent EVs as we can.
 
Sep 23, 2020
480
415
Sacramento CA
Tesla isn't perfect, and I agree that they need to up their game for customer service. Likewise they have had some quality issues that are likely coming from being such a new company; however I'm a firm believer that a lot of these issues (such as the Model 3 wheel-well that Sandy Munro lambasted) are being solved by going back to first principles as seen with the new Gigapress, rather than adopting methodologies used by other car companies. I'm fairly confident that the AI windscreen wipers are intended to improve rapidly, much like the FSD, and will therefore end up surpassing the level of accuracy from other solutions given time (and at no extra cost to the consumer for that one). I'm also fairly sure that when Giga Berlin opens we'll see some real car-building talent move to Tesla that will increase quality immensely.

I am very happy to see other manufacturers producing decent products that can and will compete, especially over this side of the pond where I can't remember the last time I did a 200 mile journey. There will be some competitive advantages that will help push Tesla to up its game and that's no bad thing.

At the end of the day we know that Tesla simply cannot manufacture enough vehicles on their own to move transport to a sustainable future in any decent space of time. So vive la revolution and bring on as many decent EVs as we can.
What a thoughtful, demure post from our friend across the pond.

Though I have to admit it's really sad that folks in the UK and EU are waiting for a German factory to build high-quality cars. That's a real problem if we'll get to the point when buyers say I want a Berlin built Tesla, not one off of the US assembly lines.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lasairfion

patmurphey

Member
Aug 26, 2020
75
75
New Jersey
The issue is not Germany, but new factories, Berlin and Texas with new construction methods, battery pack, engineering and advanced paint shop. Those items are only partially through phase-in at Freemont. Upgrades in Shanghai led to highest quality rating of all Chinese EVs.

Also prices will be lower with EU local production.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lasairfion
Sep 23, 2020
480
415
Sacramento CA
The issue is not Germany, but new factories, Berlin and Texas with new construction methods, battery pack, engineering and advanced paint shop. Those items are only partially through phase-in at Freemont. Upgrades in Shanghai led to highest quality rating of all Chinese EVs.

Also prices will be lower with EU local production.
That old phrase - perception is reality - still applies in many people's minds.

Lexus RX's were being built in Canada and Japan when I got mine. The Canadian plant was spitting out the great majority. The sales guy at the time told me the first question coming from shoppers on the lot was... "let me see the door jamb."

Yes I am sure Fremont is well past its prime...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lasairfion

Lasairfion

Member
Jul 24, 2018
497
541
UK
I think one of the issues that I've noticed is down to the fact that Teslas are built in the warm and sunny climate of Fremont.

I don't know if any of you have visited our fair isle for the winter period, but the biting cold that soaks through into your bones, with constant drizzle and salty, pot-hole filled roads, soft verges and loose chippings... very few cars stand a chance. New bushes are simply an annual eventuality. I've had each side of my suspension actually snap in half, in the last 3 years.

It has taken 2 or 3 decades for the vehicles to reach a standard where your lights don't immediately fill with condensate, your arches rust away as you watch or your window seams be filled with lichen. And even then, given long enough, it happens. My car actually features body-coloured decals that cover the areas most likely to get hit.

I think once we see German-built Teslas, we'll have engineers used to the miserable conditions that created a love in our two countries of sausages, beer, hot pies and steaming root vegetables; and perhaps see cars that start in the dripping fog, don't freeze all the ports when in sideways freezing rain, and can take a swift kick in the running gear.
 
  • Like
  • Funny
Reactions: DanDi58 and Carlvs

DaveORD

Member
Mar 12, 2020
727
628
Chicagoland
I think one of the issues that I've noticed is down to the fact that Teslas are built in the warm and sunny climate of Fremont.

I don't know if any of you have visited our fair isle for the winter period, but the biting cold that soaks through into your bones, with constant drizzle and salty, pot-hole filled roads, soft verges and loose chippings... very few cars stand a chance. New bushes are simply an annual eventuality. I've had each side of my suspension actually snap in half, in the last 3 years.

It has taken 2 or 3 decades for the vehicles to reach a standard where your lights don't immediately fill with condensate, your arches rust away as you watch or your window seams be filled with lichen. And even then, given long enough, it happens. My car actually features body-coloured decals that cover the areas most likely to get hit.

I think once we see German-built Teslas, we'll have engineers used to the miserable conditions that created a love in our two countries of sausages, beer, hot pies and steaming root vegetables; and perhaps see cars that start in the dripping fog, don't freeze all the ports when in sideways freezing rain, and can take a swift kick in the running gear.

There is a difference between building and designing. If all they are doing in Germany is building them using the same parts, design, process, etc. as specified by Fremont then all I would expect is better fit/alignment, better paint, etc. and none of that will change how well the car will perform in the UK winter if those problems are not associated with alignment, fit, etc. Now if Tesla Germany is allowed to make changes, re-design a few things then that could make a difference...
 
Sep 23, 2020
480
415
Sacramento CA
I think one of the issues that I've noticed is down to the fact that Teslas are built in the warm and sunny climate of Fremont.

I don't know if any of you have visited our fair isle for the winter period, but the biting cold that soaks through into your bones, with constant drizzle and salty, pot-hole filled roads, soft verges and loose chippings... very few cars stand a chance. New bushes are simply an annual eventuality. I've had each side of my suspension actually snap in half, in the last 3 years.

It has taken 2 or 3 decades for the vehicles to reach a standard where your lights don't immediately fill with condensate, your arches rust away as you watch or your window seams be filled with lichen. And even then, given long enough, it happens. My car actually features body-coloured decals that cover the areas most likely to get hit.

I think once we see German-built Teslas, we'll have engineers used to the miserable conditions that created a love in our two countries of sausages, beer, hot pies and steaming root vegetables; and perhaps see cars that start in the dripping fog, don't freeze all the ports when in sideways freezing rain, and can take a swift kick in the running gear.
I've never had a chance to visit your isle. So for this Christmas I am consoling myself with a bottle of 18-year Glenmorangie.

Strange how all of life's imperfections - whether from the road... from the spouse... from our former president - drift away like Harry and Meagan from the UK when sipping the Glenmorangie.
 

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top