Why Not Worry about EMF radiation in Tesla

[Agassi]

One of my colleagues at work has a family member who is very sensitive to EMF radiation to the point that he had to stop using WiFi routers and give up mobile phones.
Even the wifi electric meter installed outside of his house gives this person major headaches. This of course made me a bit worried about driving in Tesla. Am I sitting on the microwave everyday?

I finally decided to measure EMF radiation and sharing my numbers here:
https://agassitesla.yungacraft.com/2019/08/23/top-3-reasons-no-to-worry-about-emf-in-tesla

Hope this helps someone!

 

[ewoodrick]

Someone is making a lot of money selling this stuff

 

[nwdiver]

One of my colleagues at work has a family member who is very sensitive to EMF radiation to the point that he had to stop using WiFi routers and give up mobile phones.

Tell them to do a blinded test to prove it's just a nocebo.

 

[RDoc]

What nwdiver said. AFAIK EMF sensitivity has never been demonstrated in a controlled experiment.

 

[T3slaOwner]

One of my colleagues at work has a family member who is very sensitive to EMF radiation to the point that he had to stop using WiFi routers and give up mobile phones.
Even the wifi electric meter installed outside of his house gives this person major headaches. This of course made me a bit worried about driving in Tesla. Am I sitting on the microwave everyday?

I finally decided to measure EMF radiation and sharing my numbers here:
https://agassitesla.yungacraft.com/2019/08/23/top-3-reasons-no-to-worry-about-emf-in-tesla

Hope this helps someone!

Did you measure the right thing? The units advertised on the page measure magnetic fields, i.e. Teslas. Magnetic fields fall off rather quickly with distance. Calling this a measure of "radiation levels" is just wrong. The magnets on your refrigerator will generate much stronger magnetic fields than this.

Hams worry about excessive field strength. They measure V/m (Volts per meter) which applies to the electric field. When talking about radiation this only applies to the EM (electromagnetic) field. EM fields can be focused and directed so the strength is not the same in all directions. This stuff is not so simple.

BTW, the electric meter generates so much less field strength than the wires coming into your house it isn't funny.

Do you worry about using the microwave oven too?

 

[UkNorthampton]

My doctor advised me to wear emf protective clothes while driving my Tesla. Is it real?

New doctor required

 

[xtofotx]

Maybe Chuck McGill could jump in.

 

[nwdiver]

My doctor advised me to wear emf protective clothes while driving my Tesla. Is it real?

Yes. I got a MRI 15 years ago and it killed me.

 

[bruce4000]

The metal case of motors and cable shielding keeps the EM away from you ie “Faraday Cage”

 

[Tronguy]

The fields inside of a typical car are at or weaker than the fields that the body itself generates (i.e., nerve impulses, muscle contractions, etc.). Further, the body's a reasonable conductor, what with all the normal ions floating around in there; so, "skin depth" rules and tends to attenuate external stuff heavily.

There was a manufactured scare regarding Priuses in the day about the same issue. People wandered about the cars, when operating, with E- and H-field measurement kit.. and discovered that normal ICE cars tended to have higher field strengths than the Priuses and their electric motors!

I guarantee you that Tesla takes their cars to an EMC test facility (all car manufacturers have to do this) and they check for stuff that (a) would affect radio, TV, other existing services and (b) for anything that's anywhere near shouting distance of damaging to humans. Or any other kind of life.

There's the lure of a Nobel Prize for the first scientist who can show that very low levels of E or H fields, set in Standards, at whatever frequency, can affect life. So far, no dice, except for the $RANDOM Science-by-News-Conference types who don't believe in peer review. Or are looking for funding. Or are frauds.

I dunno. I work in EMI/EMC and have spent more time in EMC chambers than I've sometimes cared to admit. I can give you guys a 500-word article going into the ins and outs of skin depth, wavelength, and why Microwaves Can Be Dangerous. But, in the end, there's not a car out there that's dangerous in that regard.

Anybody want a long, tedious lecture full of equations? Say the word .

 

[imwco]

What are the symptoms you could see from sensitivity? Is it all internal / head issues? Seems like you could start wearing some sort of faraday cage helmet or something like a tesla motorcycle helmet

 

[frederickson]

First, let me state that I love my Tesla. Everything that is to follow does not change that fact.

That said, dismissal of the risks of EMF is analogous to dismissal of the risks of exposure to tobacco smoke that occurred for decades before the evidence was ultimately undeniable. I am an epidemiologist by training who has done some work in this field an there are literally thousands of studies demonstrating risks of chronic exposure to EMFs. Some of what is stated in this thread is flat out wrong. The EMFs within a Tesla, and many other cars for that matter, are orders of magnitude higher than what our bodies produce (minimal) and what we are exposed to by the sun, ground, etc. in almost all circumstances (also quite low most of the time).

This is a comprehensive compilation of the medical literature on the subject from about five years ago. https://www.radiationresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/EU-EMF2018-6-11US3.pdf

In brief, there are three types of EMFs... magnetic fields (an issue in many cars, due to the motors and electronic equipment), electric fields (not an issue in cars), and radiofrequencies (also an issue in many cars, but seemingly worse in Teslas). Chronic exposure to EMFs, including non-ionizing radiation, results in oxidative stress through overactivity of voltage gated calcium channels. This causes inflammation, DNA damage, reductions in sperm count/motility, disruptions of melatonin, and likely many other problems we simply don't know about yet.

The radiofrequencies can be measured with accuracy with consumer meters such as Acousticom II meter and magnetic fields with a TriField TF2 meter. Much like cigarette smoking, the risks in most people occur with chronic exposure. Some people are electrosensitive and react to acute exposure, though this is rare.

The problem is most concerning for children who have thin skulls and developing bodies. There is no way to sugarcoat it. The technology that we love in Teslas - and other high-end cars with navigation systems and sophisticated tech - can cause health issues if you are in your car for very long periods of time. This has not stopped me from enjoying my Model 3 for five years and now my Model Y, but I have not figured out a way to reliably shield the EMFs on long rides. I have measured the radiofrequencies, and they are highest in and around the center console (the receiver must be located there) but they radiate throughout the vehicle.

While most people who think the problem is due to the batteries and electric motor, it really isn't. The magnetic fields, emitted by batteries and motors, are no worse in a Tesla than most other cars I have measured. It is the radiofrequencies that are sky high due to the navigation and FSD equipment on board Tesla's (and most other cars today).

Do with the information what you will. It is certainly not tin foil hat material, but it is also not limited to Tesla's despite what some claim.

 

[frederickson]

What are the symptoms you could see from sensitivity? Is it all internal / head issues? Seems like you could start wearing some sort of faraday cage helmet or something like a tesla motorcycle helmet

The symptoms most often seen in the truly electrosensitive - while quite rare (per my previous post) - would be acute headaches, fatigue, and brain fog. This usually abates shortly after exposure stops.

The bigger issue is chronic exposure to excessive EMFs that takes much longer to cause health issues resultant from a persistent state of excessive oxidative stress.

 

[ohmman]

As the WHO says, there have been over 25,000 articles published over the last 30 years on EMF, we know more about their effect than we do about a number of common chemicals, and the overwhelming conclusion is that there is no scientific link between EMF exposure and health consequences.

Radiation: Electromagnetic fields

www.who.int

A "comprehensive compilation" of the medical literature would include thousands more references, the majority of which contradict conclusions from a short subset suggesting a link between EMF and health consequences. The precautionary principle is defunct at this stage.

 

[ewoodrick]

I've tried to stay away from this thread since the day the OP created it.

"If you only knew.... " would be my best answer.

Sure bodies are sensitive to EMF, many birds especially have been shown to de sensitive. After all, that's how know which direction to fly.

But, human sensitivity, every study that I've seen has disproved that it's an illness. In blind testing, it hasn't been reproduceable.

As I alluded, the earth's own EMF generator, the magnetic field is quite strong.
There are natural formations that have so much magnetism in them that compasses go crazy.
The sun's EMF fields are tremendous.
The radio frequency spectrum is full of signals. An no, you can't get away from them by moving, they are worldwide.
Even in quiet zones, there's a lot going on.

 

[Tronguy]

I saw @fredrickson's post a couple of days ago and my blood boiled. No offense, @fredrickson, but I have real trouble with your statements.

I actually am a EE who's been involved in fields and EMF testing for a heck of a long time. And, perhaps unusually for EE's nowadays, I paid serious attention when taking classes in Physics, EE Electromagnetics, Antenna Theory and Design, and, finally, in just good old circuit design. With that last: If you don't take into account EMF, it will be taking your design out of service. And I've got melted circuitry (not my stuff, but the stuff I ended up responsible for) to prove it.

Thing is: As a couple of previous posters have pointed out, there's been gazillions of studies looking for the bad effects of electromag on human health. And, for peer-reviewed studies, there's been no, and I repeat, no results that show a problem.

There have been some recent attempts to link powerline radiation (that is, magnetic (mainly) and electric fields from 50/60 Hz to Leukemia. And you can find papers to that effect on the web. Problem is: Those are not peer-reviewed papers. Those papers are released to the press without peer review, probably in the hopes by the researchers that they might get additional funding. Which makes any such, "findings" very, very suspect.

But that's about it.

And then there's the actual mechanics of how EMF might affect people.

Problem is, those mechanics Are Not Obvious To A Layperson. I can just see it: Me sitting down across the table from Ma and Pa Sixpack and attempting to explain how electromagnetics works. I have confidence that I could do it - but the handwaving would result in a qualitative explanation, rather than a rigorous quantitative explanation. Faced with that, Ma and Pa would just say, "Well, that's what you say, and you're handwaving, you admit it. Why shouldn't we believe Joe Blow over there who says it's dangerous? Better Safe than Sorry!" and away they would go.. susceptible to charlatans. And repeating false information.

So, below, I'm going to make an attempt at a simple explanation. Those of you who are in TL;DR mode should read the next couple of lines, then run away.

For low frequency EMF (below, say, 1 MHz), that stuff can penetrate, easily, into a human's body. The reason we're not all dead: The length of the electromagnetic wave (just like the distance between peaks of ripples in a pond) are several football fields to megameters long. E-fields are measured in Volts per Meter. Say a person is 2 meters long. The wavelength of a 60 Hz sine wave in free space is 5 million meters. So, the ratio of that wave to a person is 2:5e6, or 4e-7. Say one is having fun standing under some high tension wires running at 250 kV. Yes, that's large, but that's what they do. The amount of that voltage that's across you is just (+250kV - (-250kV)) * 4e-7, or 0.2V. Um. If you've ever handled a AA battery, you've had more than that across your fingers and, you'll notice, you Didn't Drop Dead. For that matter, nerve impulses and such that run the body on the inside are bigger than that. So, unless you're actually touching a 250 kV power line with your feet on the ground (in which case, that's 250 kV across 2 meters!), you're not in any physical danger.

For high frequency stuff, above 1 MHz or so, we got the self-cancelling EMF that arises because our bodies are conductive. When people like EE's say that something is conductive, it means that there are physical atomic-scale (or smaller) object that move and accelerate in the presence of an electric field.

People see this effect all the time and especially when one is in a bathroom. The obvious object in question is a mirror. So, hang onto your hat, here we go.
Say we have an electromagnetic field, positive up, negative down, and it impinges upon a mirror. Electrons are negatively charged, so they accelerate away from the negative end of the impinging wave and towards the positive end of the impinging wave.

A funny thing happens when an electron is accelerated: The field solution results in an electromagnetic field being given off by the electron, traveling at the speed of light away from the mirror, and whose field is reversed from the impinging wave, cancelling out the impinging wave at the surface of the mirror.

In fact, metals have a notable property to humans: They're shiny. They're shiny because a pure metal consists of atomic nuclei, positively charged, surrounded by the first two or three orbital clouds of the inner electrons, and then surrounded by an electron gas where the electrons can, pretty much, freely move. So, when a wave of EMF of some $RANDOM frequency hits that metal, all the electrons in the metal go, "Bounce!" and give off EMF reflections in every direction.

And now we run into the concept of Skin Depth. Unless one has a superconductor, all metals have resistance. Which means that the electrons don't quite freely accelerate - they run into the fixed nuclei and their in-close clouds of electrons. (Which makes the nuclei bounce around.. which makes the material warm. Power dissipation, anyone?). But because these electrons don't freely accelerate, they EMF they generate doesn't quite cancel out the impinging EMF.

Which means the now-reduced impinging EMF penetrates a bit further, where it runs into more electrons, which cancel it out further, and so on, until the EMF has exponentially decayed away to zero.

This has interesting issues in EE. If one walks into a Great Big Power Plant there will likely be big-ass copper bus bars carrying electricity from point A to B. If those suckers are, say, 6" across the flats, one will discover that they're not solid all the way through. They're hollow, because, due to the skin effect, all the current is concentrated on the surface of the bus bar; the current in the, say, inner 2", if it was there, would be zero. Since Copper Costs Money and that stuff in the middle isn't actually doing anything for anybody, big bus bars are built with hollow cores.

Now, for another factoid: As a Ham Radio operator, I've had the fun and joy of building some HF radio transceivers, in the 100W range. On the output side, there are some serious, air core inductors (coils of wire) that help tune the transmitter so it runs efficiently. Those coils of wire are silver plated. Why silver plated? Because, at 14 MHz or so, all the current is in the first thousands of an inch. And silver is the best room-temperature conductor; and since everything is concentrated into a very thin layer, unless one wants all the RF energy one is generating to just heat up the wire, one silver plates the wire.

The general rule: The higher the frequency, the thinner the skin depth. At 30 MHz, the sink depth (1/2.71) is in the thousands of a inch range. At 2.5 GHz, which is where Wi-Fi runs, it's in the microinches.

Now, admittedly, our flesh isn't copper or silver. But it does conduct. Well enough that, at 2.5 GHz, it's literally not going to get through one's skin.

It will, to some extent, warm up that skin, microwave oven style. But the standards bodies and their associated medical experts and EE have done the math: The levels associated with skin warming for Wi-Fi, cell telephones, HF radios, and all that jazz have been set for over 50 years now. And no study has found an effect at the levels that are being used.

By the by: Our bodies aren't slouches at getting rid of excess heat. We do that because we're warm blooded and because we sweat. Back before 50 years ago, when people were first working their ways through the issues, there were people going sterile or getting cataracts because, well, gonads, ovaries, and eyeballs are Not Known for Good Cooling Systems. Muscles and skin have the cooling chops. (Back in WWII, it wasn't unusual for a RADAR tech to stick his/her hand up into the beam to see if the RADAR was on. It took a few years before people realized that was a Very Bad Idea.

And now I'll stop.

 

[frederickson]

coming from one in academic medicine who studies the effects of environmenal exposures on human health, i can appreciate the perspective from an electrical engineer and enjoyed reading your insights.

but you lost me with the statement that there are no studies demonstrating risks of non-thermal radiation. that's just flat out wrong. i suggest you consult any of the studies below. the existence of any one of these published studies nullifies your position, but suffice to say there are far more than one.

i have become somewhat of a health libertarian after decades in public health, and if you want to put your head next to a cell phone or have your child sleep next to a wireless router, that is your business.

but bombastic claims that there isn't a single study showing that exposure to emf's at the levels from cell phones, wi-fi, etc. can cause health issues is just flat out wrong. the bradford-hill criteria for causality are supported with a consistent mechansim of voltage-gated calcium channels and downstream oxidative stress.

how much emf's contribute to the epidemic of chronic disease, when compared to ultra-processed food intake, poor air quality, sedentary lifestyles, etc. is debatable. but they are a risk to health on a chronic basis and some are affected on an acute basis.

i would read just one of the studies below. if you have an open mind, you may find the belyaev studies particularly interesting as they dispel the notion that the only effects that matter are thermal.

Magras IN, Xenos TD. 1997 RF radiation-induced changes in the prenatal development of mice.
Bioelectromagnetics 18:455-461.

Pall ML. 2016 Microwave frequency electromagnetic fields (EMFs) produce widespread neuropsychiatric effects including depression. J Chem Neuroanat 75(Pt B):43-51. doi: 10.1016/j.jchemneu.2015.08.001.

Pall, ML. 2013. Electromagnetic fields act via activation of voltage-gated calcium channels to produce beneficial or adverse effects. J Cell Mol Med 17:958-965. doi: 10.1111/jcmm.12088.

Pall, M. L. 2015 Scientific evidence contradicts findings and assumptions of Canadian Safety Panel 6: microwaves act through voltage-gated calcium channel activation to induce biological impacts at non-thermal levels, supporting a paradigm shift for microwave/lower frequency electromagnetic field action. Rev. Environ. Health 3, 99-116. doi: 10.1515/reveh2015-0001.

Pall ML. 2016 Electromagnetic fields act similarly in plants as in animals: Probable activation of calcium channels via their voltage sensor. Curr Chem Biol 10: 74-82.

Pall, M. L., 2018. How cancer can be caused by microwave frequency electromagnetic field (EMF) exposures: EMF activation of voltage-gated calcium channels (VGCCs) can cause cancer including tumor promotion, tissue invasion and metastasis via 15 mechanisms. Chapter 7 in Markov, M. S., (Ed.), Mobile Communications and Public Health, CRC Press, Boca Raton, FL, in press.

Belyaev, I., 2005. Non-thermal biological effects of microwaves. Microwave Rev. 11, 13- 29.

Belyaev, I., 2015. Biophysical mechanisms for nonthermal microwave effects. In: Markov M.S. (Ed), Electromagnetic Fields in Biology and Medicine, CRC Press, New York, pp 49-67.

Panagopoulos, D. J., Johansson, O., Carlo, G. L., 2015. Polarization: a key difference between man-made and natural electromagnetic fields, in regard to biological activity. Sci. Rep. 2015 Oct 12;5:14914. doi: 10.1038/srep14914.

Pall ML. 2018 Wi-Fi is an important threat to human health. Environ Res 164:405-416. doi: 10.1016/j.envres.2018.01.035.

Pilla, A. A., 2012. Electromagnetic fields instantaneously modulate nitric oxide signaling in challenged biological systems. Biochem. Biophys. Res. Commun. 28, 426:330-333. doi: 10.1016/j.bbrc.2012.08.078.

Lu, X. W., Du, L., Kou, L., Song, N., Zhang, Y. J., Wu, M. K., Shen, J. F., 2015. Effects of 83 moderate static magnetic fields on the voltage-gated sodium and calcium channels currents in trigeminal ganglion neurons. Electromagn. Biol. Med. 34, 285-292. doi: 10.3109/15368378.2014.906448.

Tabor, K. M., Bergeron, S. A., Horstick, E. J., Jordan, D. C., Aho, V., Porkka-Heiskanen, T., Haspel, G, Burgess, H. A., 2014. Direct activation of the Mauthner cell by electric field pulses drives ultrarapid escape responses. J Neurophysiol 112:834-844. doi: 10.1152/jn.00228.2014.

Zhang, J., Li, M., Kang, E. T., Neoh, K. G., 2016. Electrical stimulation of adipose-derived mesenchymal stem cells in conductive scaffolds and the roles of voltage-gated ion channels. Acta Biomater. 32, 46-56. doi: 10.1016/j.actbio.2015.12.024.

Tekieh T, Sasanpour P, Rafii-Tabar H. 2016 Effects of electromagnetic field exposure on conduction and concentration of voltage gated calcium channels: A Brownian dynamics study. Brain Res 1646:560-569.

ICNIRP 2009 International Commission on Non-ionizing Radiation Protection. ICNIRP statement on the “Guidelines for limiting exposure to time-varying electric, magnetic and electromagnetic fields (up to 300 GHz). Health Phys 97:257-258.

Bioinitiative Working Group. 2007 BioInitiative Report: A rationale for biologicallybased public exposure standard for electromagnetic fields (ELF and RF). Sage C and Carpenter DO (Eds.), Available online: BioInitiative Report 2012: Table of Contents (accessed March 19, 2018)

Sypniewska, R. K., Millenbaugh, N. J., Kiel, J. L., Blystone, R. V., Ringham, H. N., Mason, P. A., Witzmann, F. A., 2010. Protein changes in macrophages induced by plasma from rats exposed to 35 GHz millimeter waves. Bioelectromagnetics 3, 656-663. doi: 0.1002/bem.20598.

Kalns, J., Ryan, K. L., Mason, P. A., Bruno, J. G., Gooden, R., Kiel, J. L., 2000. Oxidative stress precedes circulatory failure induced by 35-GHz microwave heating. Shock 13, 52-59.

Garbuz, D. G., 2017. Regulation of heat shock gene expression in response to stress. Mol. Biol. 51, 352-367. doi: 10.1134/S0026893317020108.

Park, H. K., Lee, J. E., Lim, J. F., Kang, B. H., 2014. Mitochondrial Hsp90s suppress calcium-mediated stress signals propagating from the mitochondria to the ER in cancer cells. Mol. Cancer 13 Article Number: 148 doi: 10.1186/1476-4598-13-148.

Krebs, J., Groenendyk, J., Michalek, M., 2011. Ca2+-signaling, alternative splicing and endoplasmic reticulum stress responses. Neurochem. Res. 36, 1198-1211. doi: 10.1007/s11064- 011-0431-4.

Pilla, A. A., 2013. Nonthermal electromagnetic fields: from first messenger to therapeutic applications. Electromagn Biol Med 32, 123-136. doi: 10.3109/15368378.2013.776335.

Pall, M. L., 2014. Electromagnetic field activation of voltage-gated calcium channels: role in therapeutic effects. Electromagn. Biol. Med. 2014 Apr 8 doi: 10.3109/15368378.2014.906447.

Goldsmith JR. 1997 Epidemiologic evidence relevant to radar (microwave) effects. Env Health Perspect 105(Suppl 6):1579-1587.

Belyaev I, Dean A, Eger H, Hubmann G, Jandrisovits R, Kern M, Kundi M, Moshammer H, Lercher P, Müller K, Oberfeld G, Ohnsorge P, Pelzmann P, Scheingraber C, Thill R. 2016 EUROPAEM EMF Guideline 2016 for the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of EMF-related health problems and illnesses. Rev Environ Health DOI 10.1515/reveh-2016-0011.j

Hedendahl L, Carlberg M, Hardell L. 2015 Electromagnetic hypersensitivity--an increasing challenge to the medical profession. Rev Environ Health 30:209-215. doi: 10.1515/reveh-2015- 0012.

Carpenter DO. 2015 The microwave syndrome or electro-hypersensitivity: historical background. Rev Environ Health 30:217-222. doi: 10.1515/reveh-2015-0016

Havas M. 2013 Radiation from wireless technology affects the blood, the heart and the autonomic nervous system. Rev Environ Health 82:75-84.https://doi.org/10.1515/reveh-2013- 0004

Havas M, Marrongelle J, Pollmer, Kelley E, Rees C, Tully S. 2010 Provocation study using heart rate variability shows microwave radiation from 2.4 GHz cordless phone affects autonomic nervous system. Eur J Oncol 5:273-300.

 

[frederickson]

The metal case of motors and cable shielding keeps the EM away from you ie “Faraday Cage”

Faraday cages are indeed effective at blocking EMFs from coming into the cage. But the metal case of a car (or airplane) actually exacerbates EMFs being generated within a makeshift (though not perfect, which is how signal goes out and comes in) Faraday Cage.

 

[ewoodrick]

First, let me state that I love my Tesla. Everything that is to follow does not change that fact.

That said, dismissal of the risks of EMF is analogous to dismissal of the risks of exposure to tobacco smoke that occurred for decades before the evidence was ultimately undeniable. I am an epidemiologist by training who has done some work in this field an there are literally thousands of studies demonstrating risks of chronic exposure to EMFs. Some of what is stated in this thread is flat out wrong. The EMFs within a Tesla, and many other cars for that matter, are orders of magnitude higher than what our bodies produce (minimal) and what we are exposed to by the sun, ground, etc. in almost all circumstances (also quite low most of the time).

This is a comprehensive compilation of the medical literature on the subject from about five years ago. https://www.radiationresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/EU-EMF2018-6-11US3.pdf


Do with the information what you will. It is certainly not tin foil hat material, but it is also not limited to Tesla's despite what some claim.

I believe that there was an emphasis on "peer reviewed"

Even the titles of some of these are so bogus. "35-GHz microwave heating". Do you have any idea how many 35 GHz signals there are?

 

[bruce4000]

Faraday cages are indeed effective at blocking EMFs from coming into the cage. But the metal case of a car (or airplane) actually exacerbates EMFs being generated within a makeshift (though not perfect, which is how signal goes out and comes in) Faraday Cage.

I was talking about the metal cases of the EV drivetrain that generate emf containing the emf. The car body itself is full of penetrations like big glass windows.