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Why regenerative braking belongs on the brake pedal

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by JeffC, May 25, 2016.

  1. deonb

    deonb Active Member

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    Can you point to any evidence of anybody claiming that they were able to oversteer a Tesla to the point of being out of control, as a result of regen?

    Even when purposefully trying to do so?
     
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  2. Tiberius

    Tiberius Member

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    Ok, great... sounds like problem solved.

    Unless you're planning to take the 3 to the autocross track, it sounds like its not worth making a fuss about. Either get used to it or don't. Plenty of other cars out there.
     
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  3. ZBB

    ZBB Emperor

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    I have over 51k miles on my Model S. Never had an issue with trailing throttle oversteer (and yes, I know what that is).

    I keep regen on full, and don't use creep mode. I mostly drove manual transmission cars, and I equate regen through the accelerator pedal to a downshift. If I need to "coast"', I can partially lift up and then manipulate the throttle so there is effectively no regen, or I could drop it into Neutral -- but that isn't something I've ever felt compelled to do.

    Coming from a manual transmission, the Tesla felt instantly right to me. Learning how to gauge regen and allow it to slow the car down and minimize use of the brake took a few weeks, but I now only use the brake to come to a complete stop at a stop light (mostly touching the brake under 5mph, or in near-emergency situations where I need to slow down faster. The only somewhat annoying thing is that the brakes get so relatively little use that they occasionally develop squeaks, but a couple intentially hard stops takes care of those...

    Oh... And my average below the rated Wh/mile... And I don't even try to hyper mile -- I just drive the limit to about 5 over.
     
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  4. deonb

    deonb Active Member

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    That's mostly because Nissan and others were so obsessed with trying to make their cars as inoffensive and indistinguishable from ICE's as possible, that they overlooked the fact that they could have made it better than ICE's.
     
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  5. EVie'sDad

    EVie'sDad Member

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    Me too, my settings are exactly the same! And likewise coming from a manual transmission it is exactly like letting out the clutch and letting off the gas to slow down. It is natural and I don't have to spend a lot of time fuddling back and forth between the brake and/or the clutch. Speeding up and slowing down is so much smoother and more responsive, along with holding brake while stopped, so I don't have to keep pressing the break.
     
  6. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    BTW I should apologize to the group for using the words ignorant and educate in my original post. I meant to edit those out, but I guess you can't edit messages after a few minutes have passed.
     
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  7. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    Please read my essay linked in the first post. There are safety and human factors reasons why regenerative braking belongs on the brake pedal.
     
  8. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    Most drivers probably have no idea what oversteer is, so it might be hard to get reports about it.

    Any car can be made to oversteer, intentionally or not. To do it deliberately and be able to retain control takes some skill.

    The issue is how best to organize the controls so that non-racing-trained drivers don't get into trouble with an oversteering condition that they don't know how to correct. Putting regen on the throttle makes the conditions worse. Please see my essay if you haven't already.
     
  9. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

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    There's so many things wrong about the article the OP links to. Throttle regen is so much safer than brake regen (which, in fact, is no regen at all but much the same as driving an ICE). Many accidents are caused by taking corners too fast and when lifting off the gas having to brake too hard. One foot driving a Tesla on a winding highway road is the safest way one can drive. Whenever I have to take my ICE -- a Tahoe Hybrid with regen on the brake -- I realize how unsafe it is -- especially downhill going into corners.

    But this is the most telling part of the article the OP links too, which shows that the author has no idea of what he is taking about:

    "More efficient driving can also be trained interactively with the car, as Nissan showed with its growing tree dashboard animation in the Leaf."

    You really need to own a Leaf, and be involved in the Leaf community and forums, to understand how absurd this allegation is. The tree is a huge failure on the Leaf. It's an embarrassing marketing gimmick that no one wants in their car...

    What are eco trees? - My Nissan Leaf Forum
     
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  10. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    Completely agree Tesla did a good job in designing the controls of the car in general. It's very driveable and easy to control because the controls are so well done. It also has very good control feel and feedback to the driver.

    And yes, they deliberately calibrated the regen on throttle lift to be similar to engine braking in a manual transmission car in a medium gear. I discussed this with Martin Eberhard on a different forum regarding the Roadster.

    However regen belongs on the brake pedal for some of the reasons I mention in my essay, mostly to do with non-racing-trained drivers incorrect reactions to trailing throttle oversteer.

    P.S. I fully understand the benefits of regen on the throttle. I appreciate the efforts to educate me if I hadn't known about it. I request an equally open mind in considering the other point of view.
     
  11. Tiberius

    Tiberius Member

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    Sounds like a "no but I refuse to budge" to me.

    So basically, you're going to keep arguing despite having reserved a 3 and wanting to drive an S in the meantime...?

    Again, if it's such a big deal, drive something else.
     
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  12. Adm

    Adm Active Member

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    I own a Renault Zoe which is a front wheel drive econobox BEV with mild regen on accelerator lift off (about 15 kW max) and full regen on the braken pedal.
    Renault did a great job on integrating regen and fictionele brakes as you can only feel the transition when you come to a full stop. Slowing down from the last 3 mph I feel regen going away and the friction brakes taking control to make the car to a full stop.
    That said, I prefer the one pedal driving I've experienced in the few times I drove a Model S.
    I suspect the best way to go would be to offer more regen setting as is done in the VW e-Golf I believe.
    If full regen on the accelerator pedal was a safety issue, I think we would have read about it from Canadian and Norwegian owners.
     
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  13. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    #73 JeffC, May 25, 2016
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
    Putting regen on the throttle is the same as causing drivers to brake hard when they lift off the throttle. It can cause oversteer in a turn just the same as braking hard... because it's braking. That's my point.

    If you're not understanding what I'm saying in my essay, then I suppose the fault is mine for not being a good enough teacher.

    The point about efficiency is that it can be trained/learned. Leaf isn't the only car that attempts to modify driver behavior by training to be more gentle on the controls, etc.
     
  14. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    #74 JeffC, May 25, 2016
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
    Can we agree to disagree? I give lots of valid reasons for my position. You're completely free to ignore them. :)
     
  15. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    Thanks for the feedback. Good to hear that the regen is every well integrated with friction brakes on Zoe.

    Agree VW did a great job on the various regen modes on the e-Golf. Here's my review of e-Golf that explains how they handled it: 2016 Volkswagen E-Golf quick review

    The reason the oversteer issue doesn't come up very often is because it would only become a problem in extreme limit conditions. Those conditions only come up on the race track (repeatedly) or in emergencies on the street (rarely). The problem is that we want cars to behave well in emergencies, even if they are rare.
     
  16. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. Once you get a Tesla you will understand that braking and regen braking are two completely separate things. There's no comparison between the two, and there's no braking hard when you lift, as you state above.

    More importantly, your theory is easily proved wrong since we do not see the accidents you claim are caused by how Tesla has handled regen. I've never even seen one post here about it. Strange, eh?

    I've never felt safer driving a vehicle than my Tesla. My Leaf and Tahoe Hybrid, both with brake regen, feel out of control.
     
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  17. Tiberius

    Tiberius Member

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    Yeah if we were arguing. But I'm just trying to understand why you're contradicting yourself.

    You obviously put a decent amount of time in that essay and you're on a mad tear trying to convince everyone to read it.... yet you're buying in to what you seem to be raising awareness against.

    What gives dude?
     
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  18. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    The other way to get maximum use of regen is to put it on the brake pedal, where the initial application of the brakes is handled by increasing amounts of regen up through maximum regen. That's how most EVs and hybrids do it.
     
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  19. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    I'm not contradicting myself. I'd like regen to be integrated with the friction brakes.

    I can live with the Low Regen setting on a Model S, but I'd prefer the regen to be on the brakes.
     
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  20. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    I think you're missing my point. Regenerative braking is a form of braking.

    Having the car go into heavy regen when lifting off the throttle results in the car slowing down a lot... because it's braking the car. It's the same effect as using the friction brakes, just a different way of braking. They're both braking. They both cause decceleraton.

    If braking hard in the middle of a turn can result in oversteer, then the same thing can happen from heavy regenerative braking. They're both braking.

    Most people don't know what oversteer is, so it's not surprising there aren't a lot of reports about it.

    Also most people don't drive near the limits of their cars on the street, so exceeding those limits due to oversteer probably doesn't happen often. But when it does, it can make the loss of control worse. Limits can be reached and exceeded in emergency situations too.
     

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