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"Why should I pay for your gas? I'm not paying for anyone else's gas"

tbolme93

Member
May 28, 2021
8
9
North Dakota
Hey guys,

I am trying to convince my employer that the amount of electricity pulled from a standard 120v outlet to charge a Tesla is a very small amount. I know there is only so much output one single outlet can have. What is an easy way to quantify this to the average person? What is another single device that gets plugged in every day that would cost similar, or pull a similar amount of power? Is the Tesla maxing out the output that it can give? and if so, what else could do that? And how much extra monthly cost could charging a tesla really incur if its only getting a couple % every day? Thoughts/discussion/comments appreciated!
 

cusetownusa

Member
Jan 29, 2020
541
901
Syracuse NY
interesting question as I was just thinking about something similar yesterday when parking in my work parking garage. On some of the pillars in the garage I noticed that they had 120V outlets. Was wondering if our landlord would care if I plugged into it when I get my Tesla someday. My commute is rather short (about 7miles) so probably wouldn't be worth the hassle versus just plugging it in when I get home to my own garage. But was wondering how much it may cost them if I did. I am assuming it would be a very small fraction of what I pay for office rent and the garage parking space.
 
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Amped412

Member
Mar 2, 2021
94
79
St. Louis, MO
Maybe if they have a problem with it, you could recommend they take ~$10 out of your check each month. I think $10 is worth the convenience of charging up at work. Can't imagine you'd be pulling more than $10 a month worth of electricity from a 120v outlet in North Dakota.
 
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jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
10,256
11,596
Riverside Co. CA
Hey guys,

I am trying to convince my employer that the amount of electricity pulled from a standard 120v outlet to charge a Tesla is a very small amount. I know there is only so much output one single outlet can have. What is an easy way to quantify this to the average person? What is another single device that gets plugged in every day that would cost similar, or pull a similar amount of power? Is the Tesla maxing out the output that it can give? and if so, what else could do that? And how much extra monthly cost could charging a tesla really incur if its only getting a couple % every day? Thoughts/discussion/comments appreciated!

That your employer has a point, and if there is not a concern about "helping the transition to green energy" that all the people who think that an employer should do this for free have a rude awakening coming.

If you want to see how much it costs your employer, the easiest way would be to plug in at home to a 120v outlet, for 8 hours and see exactly how much electricity is added to your vehicle. take that number, multiply it by 20 (average number of work days in a month) at whatever the commercial rate of electricity is in your area, and you will get a number.

Commercial electricity is not the same cost as residential in many places.

Dont multiply it by the lowest number if you are in a tiered billing system, do it by the highest number (a business is not going to be in the lowest tier). If you have a time of use plan, you should see what that time is, and if your car would be charging during that time, use that rate.

People act like there is not a cost, but there is. There also can be a domino effect of other people either buying electric cars to "get free gas" or, asking the exact question your thread asks, which is "you dont buy my gas, why is so and so getting free energy to get to work and back"?

Employers are not "obligated" to do this at all, and there is nothing wrong in my opinion with them saying "no". Many do, especially depending on where you are, and their "save the planet" green initiatives, but its NOT required, and its NOT wrong for them to say what the thread title says.
 
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DeltaOne

Member
Mar 19, 2021
145
96
Mount Airy, MD
I am trying to convince my employer that the amount of electricity pulled from a standard 120v outlet to charge a Tesla is a very small amount.

I charged my Model 3 on 120v for the first two weeks. I just checked Teslamate (logs all Tesla activity) and found that one charging session was 6.4 hours and at 10 cents per kWh cost me $0.93.
 
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Xelloss99

Member
Jun 7, 2012
121
339
Edmonton, Alberta
Hey guys,

I am trying to convince my employer that the amount of electricity pulled from a standard 120v outlet to charge a Tesla is a very small amount. I know there is only so much output one single outlet can have. What is an easy way to quantify this to the average person? What is another single device that gets plugged in every day that would cost similar, or pull a similar amount of power? Is the Tesla maxing out the output that it can give? and if so, what else could do that? And how much extra monthly cost could charging a tesla really incur if its only getting a couple % every day? Thoughts/discussion/comments appreciated!

For similar devices, there isn't really much that comes close to an EV. An EV will use the maximum amount out of any outlet it is plugged into (actually, 80% of the maximum), all of the time until it is fully charged to your set limit, unlike almost any other appliance, which either uses only a small portion of the available power/current, or uses maximum power/current, but cycles power on and off.
The closest appliance would be an electric heater, at full heat setting, with a broken thermostat that won't turn it off when it reaches the set temperature.

For costing:
A normal household outlet is 15A at 120V. 80% of 15A is 12A - this is what your car will draw until it is at its charging limit.
Power is voltage times current, so the power draw from a 120V outlet is 120V * 12A or 1440 Watts (or 1.44 kW)

For range, a Model Y this is about 5 miles per hour or about 42.5 miles in an 8.5 hour day.

The amount of electricity used is power multiplied by time. If you are charging for 8.5 hours at work, this is 1.44 kW * 8.5 hours or 11.52 kWh.

Then you multiply this by the electrical rate, lets say $0.15/kWh (commercial power is likely going to be more expensive than what you pay at home especially since it will be used during peak times)

11.52 kWh * $0.15 per kWh is $1.728 per day.

You work roughly 20 days per month, so $1.728 * 20 is $34.56 per month that they pay for electricity fees for you to charge. And they will probably pay more than this due to commercial rates at peak charging times.
 
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linux-works

Active Member
Dec 23, 2019
2,150
3,725
mtn view, ca
this view does seem to vary a lot by geography or at least by competitive market.

in the bay area, where ev's are getting quite common, work places don't usually object to employees plugging in and some even install quite good chargers on site.

any employer that complains about even just letting you plug in - wow. I don't work in areas of the country where some employer would DARE (yes, I picked that word purposely) give flack to his worker over a dollar a day thing. can't imagine someone being that cheap.

likely: its NOT about the money. its deeper than that. feel like a red state issue (sorry, but it does seem like that's the real issue and not the cost).
 
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TunaBug

Member
Mar 27, 2021
64
56
Kirkland, WA
Your thread title implies this is about a philosophical difference, not $$$, in which case you need to change your approach.

Have have you considered that maybe the boss doesn't want to deal with bitching and moaning from coworkers complaining about "why can't I have this, too?" That's what the thread title tells me.

There are probably other costs you're not thinking about, or at least the you haven't explained here. Are you asking the employer to run an outlet? Are you asking the employer to do this for everybody, or just you (sounds like the latter)? If everybody, what's the cost for everybody, not just you? I don't know the layout of the parking lot, but if this is going to be a cord across the sidewalk then have you considered the insurance liability for the employer for people tripping over cords?

Depending on where you live, or the industry you're in, or the size of the company, you might be able to make an argument about offering this broadly could be a perk to help retain or recruit people.

If you can make progress on the philosophical points, it might then be handy to know the $$$ cost of the kWh, if only so that everybody can agree that it's minimal and not really the thing that you're trying to address.
 
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jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
10,256
11,596
Riverside Co. CA
this view does seem to vary a lot by geography or at least by competitive market.

in the bay area, where ev's are getting quite common, work places don't usually object to employees plugging in and some even install quite good chargers on site.

any employer that complains about even just letting you plug in - wow. I don't work in areas of the country where some employer would DARE (yes, I picked that word purposely) give flack to his worker over a dollar a day thing. can't imagine someone being that cheap.

likely: its NOT about the money. its deeper than that. feel like a red state issue (sorry, but it does seem like that's the real issue and not the cost).

Assume it costs 1-2 dollars a day, times 20 work days a week, so 20-40 a month, or $240 to $480 a year... per employee, of additional expense "just because". Your location says "mountain view". Everyone doesnt work in places with wages (or expenses) like the bay area. $240 to $480 per employee, per year, "just because" is not a dollar.

It can absolutely be "about the money" instead of politics. In effect, the person is asking for an additional benefit that is not provided to other employees. Yes, there are plenty of businesses that might do this for employees to attract talent, but its not "required" and should not be "expected". thats the issue here to me, is that the OP is coming at this from an angle that "I am entitled this, how do I convince my yahoo boss he is wrong when he says "why should I buy you gas when I dont buy everyone else gas" and thats simply not the case.
 
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RTPEV

Active Member
Mar 21, 2016
1,009
1,148
Durham, NC
Pretty much everything has already been said that needs saying here, but I will add one thing: when I approached my employer & property management about installing an outlet that I could use, I started out by offering to pay the installation costs and pay $30/month for electricity (probably far more than I would use, but it wasn't about cost for me, but convenience). It turned out that the property management went ahead and installed an outlet at their cost and told me not to worry about the electricity cost. They even asked what kind of outlet I needed, so I specified the 240V receptacle my EVSE used at the time (I had honestly only been expecting a 120V outlet!) I figure for the size of the business park they ran, they would not even notice the additional amount of electricity I was pulling. They didn't even ask how much it would pull.

I guess I was fortunate, and no, I don't think this was a case of the property management trying to be "green"--they asked that I not publicize the fact that they did this, but rather they simply wanted to be accommodating and determined that it wasn't a big deal, and probably would have turned into a big deal if we made some kind of side arrangement for me to pay them some small amount each month for electricity. It probably wasn't worth the hassle to them to set up an account to deal with that, so they just figured they'd eat the cost.

Like others have said, I would certainly never presume that my employer (or the property management) would pay for my electricity. My first approach to them on the subject would be to explain why I needed an outlet (and in my case, I DID need the outlet for my Nissan LEAF that was getting short on range!), explain how much electricity it used, and right off the bat offer to pay in excess for that amount. If they agree, great. They may even decide that it's less than the cost of coffee that they provide in the break room and decide to not bother with it. But they may also not be in a position to have you reimburse them for the cost as they will have to set up an account for this purpose, and that may simply be a hassle they are not looking to get into.
 
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tbolme93

Member
May 28, 2021
8
9
North Dakota
That your employer has a point, and if there is not a concern about "helping the transition to green energy" that all the people who think that an employer should do this for free have a rude awakening coming.
For the record, I am not looking for a handout. Nor would I fight my employer for saying no. They have that right, and that seems fair to me. There are already outlets installed in the parking lots that were put in place for cars with block heaters, because it gets so cold up here in ND that you actually do need it some days. There is an outlet for every spot in the lot. I was really just looking for a data point to emphasize the fact that plugging in an EV will not dramatically run up the electricity bill over the course of a day. Something similar that I could compare it to that people are more familiar with. Like maybe it takes as much as the new powerful laptops we use, or something easily quantifiable like that. There seems to be a misconception that my car will rack on hundreds of dollars per month on to the bill. My only intent is to be better equipped to squash that narrative.
 
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tbolme93

Member
May 28, 2021
8
9
North Dakota
Hey guys,

I am trying to convince my employer that the amount of electricity pulled from a standard 120v outlet to charge a Tesla is a very small amount. I know there is only so much output one single outlet can have. What is an easy way to quantify this to the average person? What is another single device that gets plugged in every day that would cost similar, or pull a similar amount of power? Is the Tesla maxing out the output that it can give? and if so, what else could do that? And how much extra monthly cost could charging a tesla really incur if its only getting a couple % every day? Thoughts/discussion/comments appreciated!
Edit: I do not believe that I am entitled to this. I just wanted an easy, quantifiable comparison for the energy that it would pull. For my own learning, and for the education of others. I apologize if the title made it seem like I felt entitled to that. I have no intentions of giving Tesla owners a bad name in that way.
 
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cpa

Active Member
May 17, 2014
3,207
4,261
Central Valley
At the risk of showing my ignorance.....cuz I am from California where we wear sweaters and jackets in 60 degree weather.....

I assume that a block heater is something that heats up the oil pan so that one's ICE can start up more easily when temperatures are -50 or something.

--Who pays for the electricity for these block heaters?
--Are block heaters at places of employment a common thing in North Dakota?
--Is it customary for employers to provide electricity to their employees' cars during winter at no charge to the employee? In other words, is this a generally accepted employee benefit in North Dakota?
--What happens to people who work for a company that does not provide these block heating arrangements?

It seems to me that the employer is using the straw man to say that he does not pay for employees' gasoline if he pays for their block heating. Your Tesla will not need a block heater, so why is he paying for them and not you?

(While I would not advance that argument to my boss, I think that it is a sound argument.)

I think your boss is being a bit of a prick. You know him so you likely know the true reasoning behind his refusal. Especially if you offered to have a convenient payroll deduction each month for $25-$30 of juice.
 
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jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
10,256
11,596
Riverside Co. CA
Edit: I do not believe that I am entitled to this. I just wanted an easy, quantifiable comparison for the energy that it would pull. For my own learning, and for the education of others. I apologize if the title made it seem like I felt entitled to that. I have no intentions of giving Tesla owners a bad name in that way.

FWIW, appreciate the clarification. Its sometimes hard (a lot of times, really) to see intent in written words, vs a conversation. Throwing a number at the wall, based on what the internet says about north dakota electricity rates, you could offer your boss / manager / employer to pay $20 a month for the convenience of plugging in at work, if its about convenience and not a desire for free electricity.

Even offering to pay, will likely shift the conversation away from "why should I give you free gas when I dont give the other employees the same thing" as it removes "free" from the conversation. It allows the boss / manager etc to say, in answer to that question from other employees, "oh, thats not free, so and so is paying for using that" which shuts down that entire line of questioning, extra expense, etc.

As for how much power it is, see the post from @Xelloss99 . Roughly 11kWh during your 8 hour shift. Look at your home electric bill, and see how much electricity you use at your residence, daily, if you dont charge your car.

Everyone has different usage, but that might help you put it in perspective. If you use 22 kWh a day at your home when you dont charge your car, then your vehicle would be taking half that amount of energy during your 8 hour shift at work. Its not "a laptop" or "a fridge" worth of power, even though where you are the cost of that power is fairly cheap (especially compared to where I am).

Offering to pay $20 to $30 (if you need the convenience of charging at work because of your home charging situation) or, letting it go, seem to be most reasonable options if your employer is not interested in going down the road of discussing with everyone why they pay for "gas" for EVs but not "gas" for ICE vehicles.
 
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RTPEV

Active Member
Mar 21, 2016
1,009
1,148
Durham, NC
For the record, I am not looking for a handout. Nor would I fight my employer for saying no. They have that right, and that seems fair to me. There are already outlets installed in the parking lots that were put in place for cars with block heaters, because it gets so cold up here in ND that you actually do need it some days. There is an outlet for every spot in the lot. I was really just looking for a data point to emphasize the fact that plugging in an EV will not dramatically run up the electricity bill over the course of a day. Something similar that I could compare it to that people are more familiar with. Like maybe it takes as much as the new powerful laptops we use, or something easily quantifiable like that. There seems to be a misconception that my car will rack on hundreds of dollars per month on to the bill. My only intent is to be better equipped to squash that narrative.

Well it's going to be FAR more than a single laptop. Maybe 20 or 30 of them though.

When plugged into a 120V outlet, the car is going to be pulling about 12A. Power is voltage times current, so it will pull about 1440 watts.

You can look up how much electricity various appliances pull, but one that comes to mind immediately is a hair dryer. You can compare it to running a hair dryer for 8 hours a day.

Here is a list you can reference, but note that many of the items listed that are above 1400W are not typically run for 8 hours straight. So I'm not sure this is the best way to make your point.


I would focus on cost. Basically the car is going to consume 1.44 kWh of electricity each hour. Over the course of 8 hours, this is 11.52 kWh per day (assuming the car doesn't actually complete charging by then). Multiply that times the cost of electricity in your area (say $0.12/kWh) and you can figure the cost of electricity per day. As you can see, it's going to be in the range of $1.50 or so, per day.
 
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Xelloss99

Member
Jun 7, 2012
121
339
Edmonton, Alberta
At the risk of showing my ignorance.....cuz I am from California where we wear sweaters and jackets in 60 degree weather.....

I assume that a block heater is something that heats up the oil pan so that one's ICE can start up more easily when temperatures are -50 or something.

--Who pays for the electricity for these block heaters?
--Are block heaters at places of employment a common thing in North Dakota?
--Is it customary for employers to provide electricity to their employees' cars during winter at no charge to the employee? In other words, is this a generally accepted employee benefit in North Dakota?
--What happens to people who work for a company that does not provide these block heating arrangements?
-Block heater outlets, when provided, would be covered with the building electricity (I.E. by the company or property management firm)
-Most places do not have block heaters for all parking spots. When provided, perhaps a few near the building may have block heater spots. Many places have none at all. Usually if they are available, the employees who arrive earliest will get them. Or sometimes they are in reserved spots.
-If you don't have block heater outlets (and as above, not everybody would get one even if they were available), on very cold days, people will go out to their cars during lunch hour and start them up, and either wait in the car a few minutes, or go back inside, have their lunch then go back out and turn the car off. In cold weather climate areas, many people have remote car starters so you don't have to go outside to do this. This is an enjoyable part of owning a Tesla in cold weather, you can calmly have your lunch and laugh at your co-workers going out to start their cars when its -40 out.

Unasked questions:
- Block heaters don't run continously, there is a temperature sensor. So for a block heater not on a timer, they would not use the power an EV would use as it will cycle on until the block temp is warm enough, then turn off, then only turn on when the block is below a certain temp.
- To service more block heaters on the same electrical circuit(s) quite often they are on timers, for example outlet 1 gets turned on for 15 minutes, then it is turned off and outlet 2 gets turned on for 15 minutes, etc.
 
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linux-works

Active Member
Dec 23, 2019
2,150
3,725
mtn view, ca
Assume it costs 1-2 dollars a day, times 20 work days a week, so 20-40 a month, or $240 to $480 a year... per employee, of additional expense "just because". Your location says "mountain view". Everyone doesnt work in places with wages (or expenses) like the bay area. $240 to $480 per employee, per year, "just because" is not a dollar.
I completely disagree. if you are a business of size more than, say, 5, and you are measuring down to this noise level, you are not good at business.

business is making a killing, this era (last few decades but last one in particular). if you are a business, you can't really be serious if you bitch and moan about a few dollars. cost of coffee. do you also not give your employees coffee?

look, no one is asking for a friggin tank of gas. this is electric. and if other employees who dont 'do' electric want to complain, there is a solution that is not unallowed to them. if they want ot point and complain, let them. a smart business would see this as a tiny cost that clearly gets much more in return for keeping a good employee happy. for a few dollars? my god, man. seriously?

this is what is wrong with american business today.
 
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jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
10,256
11,596
Riverside Co. CA
I completely disagree. if you are a business of size more than, say, 5, and you are measuring down to this noise level, you are not good at business.

business is making a killing, this era (last few decades but last one in particular). if you are a business, you can't really be serious if you bitch and moan about a few dollars. cost of coffee. do you also not give your employees coffee?

look, no one is asking for a friggin tank of gas. this is electric. and if other employees who dont 'do' electric want to complain, there is a solution that is not unallowed to them. if they want ot point and complain, let them. a smart business would see this as a tiny cost that clearly gets much more in return for keeping a good employee happy. for a few dollars? my god, man. seriously?

this is what is wrong with american business today.

We can agree to disagree. yes, this is exactly "asking for a tank of friggen gas", as other employess would see it. No employee is going to equate a cup of coffee to free commutes to work, even if the cost works out to be the same per employee. They just wont.
 
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