Why so many “outages" [recorded by my system]

[Cigano]

I installed 3X PowerWalls to a pre-existing (non-Tesla) grid-tied PV solar system on 17MAR22. Thru the end of June I have recorded 30 outages! 4 were self-induced “go offline”. Three were for “a few seconds”, which is consistent with our experience prior to the install. A couple appear to be legitimate outages ... but the great majority are of exactly 5 minutes duration, and occur in clumps of several outages over a few hours (always nighttime). I’m trying to understand what is happening, and am unable to find answers. As this group knows, PowerWall technical documentation is sparse to say the least.

I spent 28 minutes on the phone with a rude Tesla tech rep. I was told (A) the inverter was being kicked-offline because the solar panels were overproducing (Between midnight and 3:00 AM? ... Of course!) (B) My utility-installed net-meter was not regulating the voltage correctly, and I should contact them (Really?) (C ) When I asked if the Gateway monitors the grid frequency of the incoming AC current, I was told the frequency I use the Air Conditioners should not have any impact. Not a whole lot of help to say the least.

I’m guessing that either the incoming grid voltage or frequency is enough “off” that the Gateway is disconnecting from the grid ... and for some reason the Gateway is taking exactly 5 minutes to decide it is safe to reconnect .. I wish I understood more. Can anyone help, please?

 

[loan-potato]

When Powerwall detects an outage it wait 5 minutes after utility power is restored to switch back. This is to give the grid a chance to stabilize before transferring back.

I had Powerwalls installed in March 2022. Since then I had logged over 50 outages. Most about about 5 minutes long. Then one day about a month ago the transformer in my neighbors yard blew up, and the power was out for 18 hours while they replaced the transformer.

Since the transformer was fixed I’ve not had a single power outage.

So if you are logging frequent outages, open a trouble ticket with your utility company. Likely an intermittent problem on their side.

 

[jboy210]

Hopeful, @MorrisonHiker will contribute to this thread, since they are in Colorado and have experienced and I believe fixed, some offline issues with the utilities there.

 

[bmah]

If you want to try to find out first-hand how bad (or good) your power is, you can buy a relatively cheap device like a Kill-A-Watt, which can put up a display of the AC line frequency or input voltage on whatever circuit you plug it in to. The Powerwall gateway also monitors frequency and voltage, although it's not available in the Tesla app (you need to dig it out of the not-officially-supported Tesla API, or use one of several tools that can do this for you). This won't fix your problem but it might give you some idea as to what's going on.

https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/

Also, you could try calling Tesla Energy support again and hope you get a more helpful person on the other end.

Good luck!

Bruce.

 

[jjrandorin]

(B) My utility-installed net-meter was not regulating the voltage correctly, and I should contact them (Really?) (C ) When I asked if the Gateway monitors the grid frequency of the incoming AC current, I was told the frequency I use the Air Conditioners should not have any impact. Not a whole lot of help to say the least.

I’m guessing that either the incoming grid voltage or frequency is enough “off” that the Gateway is disconnecting from the grid ... and for some reason the Gateway is taking exactly 5 minutes to decide it is safe to reconnect .. I wish I understood more. Can anyone help, please?

Its probably B (utility voltage) and the reason its 5 minutes is because the system has a re connection time frame on a power outage of 5 minutes to sync back with the grid.

@MorrisonHiker had a similar problem, with utility power (I believe it was a transformer in their neighborhood). Without any other information, I am going to guess that there is an issue with voltage drop when you and / or your neighbors turn on X or Y, and the system is disconnecting due to sensing a power issue and re connecting after the standard 5 minute sequence.

Perhaps @MorrisonHiker can describe their issue to you better, as it may apply to you as well.

 

[Cigano]

When Powerwall detects an outage it wait 5 minutes after utility power is restored to switch back. This is to give the grid a chance to stabilize before transferring back.

I had Powerwalls installed in March 2022. Since then I had logged over 50 outages. Most about about 5 minutes long. Then one day about a month ago the transformer in my neighbors yard blew up, and the power was out for 18 hours while they replaced the transformer.

Since the transformer was fixed I’ve not had a single power outage.

So if you are logging frequent outages, open a trouble ticket with your utility company. Likely an intermittent problem on their side.

Thank you! I didn’t know about the 5-minute restore timer for the power to stabilize. Makes sense!

 

[Cigano]

Hopeful, @MorrisonHiker will contribute to this thread, since they are in Colorado and have experienced and I believe fixed, some offline issues with the utilities there.

Thank you. Looking forward to a reply from @MorrisonHiker. We have a nominal Morrison address ... perhaps we share the same problem.

 

[Cigano]

Its probably B (utility voltage) and the reason its 5 minutes is because the system has a re connection time frame on a power outage of 5 minutes to sync back with the grid.

@MorrisonHiker had a similar problem, with utility power (I believe it was a transformer in their neighborhood). Without any other information, I am going to guess that there is an issue with voltage drop when you and / or your neighbors turn on X or Y, and the system is disconnecting due to sensing a power issue and re connecting after the standard 5 minute sequence.

Perhaps @MorrisonHiker can describe their issue to you better, as it may apply to you as well.

Thank you. You have given me something to think about.

 

[Cigano]

If you want to try to find out first-hand how bad (or good) your power is, you can buy a relatively cheap device like a Kill-A-Watt, which can put up a display of the AC line frequency or input voltage on whatever circuit you plug it in to. The Powerwall gateway also monitors frequency and voltage, although it's not available in the Tesla app (you need to dig it out of the not-officially-supported Tesla API, or use one of several tools that can do this for you). This won't fix your problem but it might give you some idea as to what's going on.

https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/

Also, you could try calling Tesla Energy support again and hope you get a more helpful person on the other end.

Good luck!

Bruce.

Thank you. I already own a Kill-a-Watt ... just use if for checking power consumption. Should have thought about using it for frequency too.

 

[miimura]

Thank you. I already own a Kill-a-Watt ... just use if for checking power consumption. Should have thought about using it for frequency too.

Watch the voltage too. That is much more likely to trip the Powerwalls than the frequency when you are on-grid. When you are off-grid, watching the frequency is useful to see how the Powerwalls are managing your solar production. They bump up the frequency to curtail the solar when necessary.

 

[BGbreeder]

I agree with @jjrandorin that is likely a utility supply issue. Although if it almost always happens between midnight and three am, I would be more inclined to suspect that it is the utility doing a switching event, or, perhaps and over voltage event as the local load disapates, or possibly a loose connection somewhere on your circuit, probably on a pole or at the transformer. I lived somewhere that the local utility flipped some grid switch every day at 6:00am, resetting anything electronic not on a UPS. Annoying to say the least.

All the best,

BG

 

[EVRider-FL]

I get the same frequent 5 minute outages. I’m convinced they’re not actual grid outages.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Thanks for making me aware of this thread @jboy210 , @jjrandorin and @Cigano .

We started having our problem on sunny days a few months after expanding our solar system a few years back. We noticed voltage issues and initially attributed it to our neighbor's pool. We complained to Xcel Energy and they sent a guy out to test the line coming into our house. He basically just plugged a heat gun in close to our meter, took a few readings and wrote down a few numbers and said things were in spec. We continued to have more and more outages, sometimes over three dozen 5 minute outages per day. This was causing us to lose out on over 2.5 hours a day of solar production, often during the best production times of the day. We figured the old transformer was the problem since there were at least five houses all sharing the same 25 kVA pole-mounted transformer that had been installed decades ago. I tried calling and complaining to Xcel Energy again that the transformer was obviously old and undersized. The impolite agent on the phone said that the transformer had been sized to "meet the demands necessary at the time it was installed" and it wasn't Xcel's fault that we were buying "smart cars" which had high energy demands and were causing the problem. She indicated we could pay some outrageous fee of $8000 (or more?) to have Xcel do a study to see if the transformer needed to be replaced or upgraded. If the transformer was found to be insufficient, we would've received a refund but we didn't want to take the $8000 gamble so we escalated the issue with Tesla instead.

In June 2020, we had a derecho come through town that ironically took out every power pole in our neighborhood except for the three which had the bad transformer and the lines to our house. The neighborhood was without power for nearly 48 hours but we did fine thanks to our solar and Powerwalls. During those 48 hours, Xcel replaced all other power poles and transformers in our neighborhood except for the one causing our problem. We continued to experience problems and complained to Xcel and Tesla. About 6 months after the derecho, Xcel eventually installed a new transformer on a new pole at the edge of our property. It is shared just between us and another neighbor. IIRC, they swapped out the original old transformer down the street which was causing our problems and the new one now only serves 4 houses.

The new (almost dedicated) transformer definitely fixed our issues. After over 800 outages totaling over 200 hours in 2020, we only had 9 outages in all of 2021 totaling just 4 hours. So far in 2022, we've had 11 outages totaling about 5.5 hours, most of which were during snow storms.

When we were having our problems, we did some research and did find there are several settings for the gateway/Powerwalls that Tesla controls. There are various frequency and voltage numbers that can be adjusted to help "ignore" the dirty power somewhat. Unfortunately, at some time after our initial complaints, it seemed Tesla made some changes to our settings which made things worse and caused the Powerwalls to take over more frequently.

@Cigano , I would suggest you do a little detective work and track down the transformer serving your house. Try to determine how many houses it serves, when it was installed and if it has even been upgraded. Check with other neighbors on the transformer to see if they are experiencing outages as well. We spoke with many of our neighbors and found they were experiencing many brief outages but not the dozens per day that we were having. They didn't have Powerwalls to "help out" so they most likely just had brown-outs and brief black-outs. The dozens of outages we were experiencing were because the Powerwalls were taking us off-grid due to the dirty power serving our neighborhood. You might also check with higher level Tesla Powerwall support and or try calling the Powerwall APIs yourself to see what the voltage and frequency settings are. Tesla could try tweaking them to see if that would reduce the number of outages...but I would guess a failing transformer is really to blame.

 

[Cigano]

Thanks for making me aware of this thread @jboy210 , @jjrandorin and @Cigano .

We started having our problem on sunny days a few months after expanding our solar system a few years back. We noticed voltage issues and initially attributed it to our neighbor's pool. We complained to Xcel Energy and they sent a guy out to test the line coming into our house. He basically just plugged a heat gun in close to our meter, took a few readings and wrote down a few numbers and said things were in spec. We continued to have more and more outages, sometimes over three dozen 5 minute outages per day. This was causing us to lose out on over 2.5 hours a day of solar production, often during the best production times of the day. We figured the old transformer was the problem since there were at least five houses all sharing the same 25 kVA pole-mounted transformer that had been installed decades ago. I tried calling and complaining to Xcel Energy again that the transformer was obviously old and undersized. The impolite agent on the phone said that the transformer had been sized to "meet the demands necessary at the time it was installed" and it wasn't Xcel's fault that we were buying "smart cars" which had high energy demands and were causing the problem. She indicated we could pay some outrageous fee of $8000 (or more?) to have Xcel do a study to see if the transformer needed to be replaced or upgraded. If the transformer was found to be insufficient, we would've received a refund but we didn't want to take the $8000 gamble so we escalated the issue with Tesla instead.

In June 2020, we had a derecho come through town that ironically took out every power pole in our neighborhood except for the three which had the bad transformer and the lines to our house. The neighborhood was without power for nearly 48 hours but we did fine thanks to our solar and Powerwalls. During those 48 hours, Xcel replaced all other power poles and transformers in our neighborhood except for the one causing our problem. We continued to experience problems and complained to Xcel and Tesla. About 6 months after the derecho, Xcel eventually installed a new transformer on a new pole at the edge of our property. It is shared just between us and another neighbor. IIRC, they swapped out the original old transformer down the street which was causing our problems and the new one now only serves 4 houses.

The new (almost dedicated) transformer definitely fixed our issues. After over 800 outages totaling over 200 hours in 2020, we only had 9 outages in all of 2021 totaling just 4 hours. So far in 2022, we've had 11 outages totaling about 5.5 hours, most of which were during snow storms.

When we were having our problems, we did some research and did find there are several settings for the gateway/Powerwalls that Tesla controls. There are various frequency and voltage numbers that can be adjusted to help "ignore" the dirty power somewhat. Unfortunately, at some time after our initial complaints, it seemed Tesla made some changes to our settings which made things worse and caused the Powerwalls to take over more frequently.

@Cigano , I would suggest you do a little detective work and track down the transformer serving your house. Try to determine how many houses it serves, when it was installed and if it has even been upgraded. Check with other neighbors on the transformer to see if they are experiencing outages as well. We spoke with many of our neighbors and found they were experiencing many brief outages but not the dozens per day that we were having. They didn't have Powerwalls to "help out" so they most likely just had brown-outs and brief black-outs. The dozens of outages we were experiencing were because the Powerwalls were taking us off-grid due to the dirty power serving our neighborhood. You might also check with higher level Tesla Powerwall support and or try calling the Powerwall APIs yourself to see what the voltage and frequency settings are. Tesla could try tweaking them to see if that would reduce the number of outages...but I would guess a failing transformer is really to blame.

Thank you @MorrisonHiker. More and more I’m beginning to believe we have a transformer issue, thanks to replies on this thread. We do have a dedicated transformer (30 years old) at the end of a l-o-n-g aboveground run. It took a lightening strike last year, and Xcel replaced the shattered lightening arrester, but there may have been some internal damage. I appreciate your help.

 

[zƬesla]

Last year, we used to get these frequent 5-minute grid outages during which PWs would power the house. Eventually tracked it down to a tree branch that would hit the power lines ~1/2 mile down the road from us. Neighbors would only have a flicker of lights so it didn't bother them much, but it was enough for the Powerwalls to kick in for the required 5 minutes. PoCo eventually trimmed back the branch and haven't had the issue since.

 

[BGbreeder]

Thank you @MorrisonHiker. More and more I’m beginning to believe we have a transformer issue, thanks to replies on this thread. We do have a dedicated transformer (30 years old) at the end of a l-o-n-g aboveground run. It took a lightening strike last year, and Xcel replaced the shattered lightening arrester, but there may have been some internal damage. I appreciate your help.

I am not an electrician, and I am certainly not on site with you, so take this all with lots of caution as it isn't coming from an expert. If you can, go eyeball the ground on the transformer to make sure that it is connected and intact all the way into the ground. Whatever you do, don't touch it! It could have a lot of energy in it.

A year after we had a bad lightning storm, as our Powerwalls were being installed, our transformer rolled over and died due to a bad neutral/ground. For the intervening year between the lightning storm and the transformer explosion, I had noticed that the microwave wasn't quite as powerful as it had been, which in retrospect was the floating/bad neutral. At the time, I was thinking about how annoyed I was that our nice fairly new microwave was dying. If you had a hit that blew the lightning arrestor, I would suspect a bad transformer / bad connection at the transformer / bad ground there. If you are comfortable a voltmeter, I would check the two phases on your 240 supply, specifically how balanced they are, unloaded, and with one side loaded like a microwave or hairdryer or space heater. If one side goes up as the other side goes down under load, you may have a neutral issue.

We found out later that, like @MorrisonHiker , our utility had already replaced every other transformer for five miles farther downhill from us. As they had blown off two appointments for replacing ours before our transformers died, I didn't feel too bad that they got rolled out on short notice in a weekend. They showed me the copper ground wire that had melted open. The fact they allowed the transformer to blow up meant that they lost our three phase sequence which turned out to be a challenge in itself. (Long story short, I couldn't find a local residential electrician who understood three phase.)

All the best,

BG