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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
To be clear, I don't care about having different DC standards across countries. I'm talking about different standards in the same country/regions. Currently we have 3 incompatible standards in the USA: CHAdeMO, CCS (Type 1), and Tesla. Europe is similar (except they have CCS Type 2).
I'm perfectly fine if China adopts GB/T and Japan sticks with CHAdeMO. It's just what do we do in the USA? If a DC standard is to be dropped, now is the best time to do it while there is still no viable long distance charging network (other than Tesla).
Hyundai recently ditched CHAdeMO in the Ioniq in favor of CCS. I'm pretty sure its corporate cousin Kia will follow shortly. So Nissan/Mitsubishi will be the lone wolf (and given Mitsubishi's dire situation, probably the Leaf will end up being the only significant EV sticking with CHAdeMO).
in europe we are in the same boat.
CCS, CHADEMO, Tesla Supercharger(the best imo).
I would vote for CCS due to is ease of use, vs the huge chademo plug.
In the perfect world we would use modified tesla type2. That would solve this connector mess problem.
I just looked at a plugshare map of our area and see quite a number of CCS DCFC going in at destination spots like hotels, grocery stores, Walmart, even a Walgreens. Some from the photos appear to be the dual ChargePoint equipment--CHAdeMO and CCS. Otherwise the J1772 equipment is more plentiful but is really, really destination charging given the slow charge rate. We're not all that close to any Tesla SCs and it would be nice to have a fast charge solution closer should we need it. That CHAdeMO adapter apart from being so clunky and huge to store comes with a hefty price tag.
I do wonder if the lower battery range Model 3 which to me is more of a commuter car due to the smaller size and storage space, will be able to use the CCS system. I know Tesla is adding a lot more SCs but it seems to me the average Joe might rather charge at places like I mentioned above while away from home and not seek out SC locations when running a lot of errands after work with the kids.
Also wonder if places will start dropping or switching out their J1772s in favor of faster charging solutions which I think customers will want.
I do wonder if the lower battery range Model 3 which to me is more of a commuter car due to the smaller size and storage space, will be able to use the CCS system. I know Tesla is adding a lot more SCs but it seems to me the average Joe might rather charge at places like I mentioned above while away from home and not seek out SC locations when running a lot of errands after work with the kids.
Also wonder if places will start dropping or switching out their J1772s in favor of faster charging solutions which I think customers will want.
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I'm not sure that a faster charger is necessarily a better idea, specifically for a hotel-type destination. Restaurants, shopping, those sorts of places, probably yes. You'll only be there for an hour or so (though note the discussions about EvGo's 30-minute time limit). But if you're going to be staying the night, it would be better to have more of the slower L2 spots, than a few fast ones where you have to move your car after it's done charging, or onto the charger when a spot opens up. For a hotel, I'd rather have them have enough spots where I can be assured of getting a one, and then be able to leave the car plugged in all night. Assurance of a charging spot could be a great anxiety reducer at some sites (away from the SC network, or for non-Telsa EVs).
At work locations, for example, a whole bunch of 120v / 20 amp outlets would be perfect, enough to cover most commutes in a work-day's worth of charging. They're probably a lot easier to get funded, too. It got really annoying having to move my car on / off the J1772 L2 chargers we had at work, because there were so few of them. Knowing when to start charging was a challenge, so that the end of charge didn't come during a meeting.
Thinking it needs to be as fast as possible only works in the gas station model where you wait for the fill-up. The EV model is different. The ideal is to have a charging solution always available (i.e. ubiquitous enough), and have the charging rate such that your need to use the car is matched with the end of charge (or sufficient for the next leg).
I agree that more spots, even if lower power, make more sense for destination locations than DCFCs.
But I'd suggest L2's if possible. At work we have one 208v/50a and four 120v/20a outlets. The lower power spots aren't quite enough for many folks. I've also stayed at several hotels that only had 15a outlets, and it's hard to make that work if you have much daily driving or don't have a supercharger relatively close on your route in/out.
Then the one to drop in the US should be SAE Combo aka Combo1 flavor of CCS. CHAdeMO installations far outnumber SAE Combo, a standard which should never have existed in the first place and which has had had very lukewarm to no support from some of it's backers (e.g. GM Won't Fund CCS Fast-Charging Sites For 2017 Chevy Bolt EV, Spark EV w/optional SAE Combo was sold in only 2 states, Ford having nothing supporting SAE Combo until recently, Mercedes and FCA shipping nothing w/SAE Combo in the US, etc.)
The slow 24 kW charge rate of these SAE Combo only DC chargers doesn't help much from a long distance network POV: CPE100 and Bosch & BMW Announce 24 kW DC Charger For North America At $9,995.
Nissan now owns a controlling stake in Mitsubishi Motors.
Nissan Seals $2.3 Billion Mitsubishi Motors Stake Deal
Nissan Completes Takeover of Mitsubishi, Keeping Its Embattled Chief
Press Release | News･Events | MITSUBISHI MOTORS
Kia Soul EV has CHAdeMO. Outlander PHEV (n/a in the US, still) has CHAdeMO. JDM Prius Prime also has CHAdeMO. For some reason, Toyota omitted it from the US version.
Toyota Mirai has CHAdeMO outlet. Tesla supports CHAdeMO via their $450 adapter. Japanese market BMW i3 has CHAdeMO standard. More vehicles at EVs – Chademo Association.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Again, what they do in Japan (which is no doubt CHAdeMO) is absolutely irrelevant to the US. As you point out, even cars with CHAdeMO in Japan don't have it in US version (even for the executive members of CHAdeMO like Toyota).Then the one to drop in the US should be SAE Combo aka Combo1 flavor of CCS. CHAdeMO installations far outnumber SAE Combo, a standard which should never have existed in the first place and which has had had very lukewarm to no support from some of it's backers (e.g. GM Won't Fund CCS Fast-Charging Sites For 2017 Chevy Bolt EV, Spark EV w/optional SAE Combo was sold in only 2 states, Ford having nothing supporting SAE Combo until recently, Mercedes and FCA shipping nothing w/SAE Combo in the US, etc.)
The slow 24 kW charge rate of these SAE Combo only DC chargers doesn't help much from a long distance network POV: CPE100 and Bosch & BMW Announce 24 kW DC Charger For North America At $9,995.
Nissan now owns a controlling stake in Mitsubishi Motors.
Nissan Seals $2.3 Billion Mitsubishi Motors Stake Deal
Nissan Completes Takeover of Mitsubishi, Keeping Its Embattled Chief
Press Release | News･Events | MITSUBISHI MOTORS
Kia Soul EV has CHAdeMO. Outlander PHEV (n/a in the US, still) has CHAdeMO. JDM Prius Prime also has CHAdeMO. For some reason, Toyota omitted it from the US version.
As for the Mitsubishi point, Nissan having a controlling stake doesn't change Mitsubishi's dire situation much. The amount of EVs they sell in the US is insignificant, esp. the type that would use a DC connector. In the Mirai (ignoring the low volume), the CHAdeMO port is used to export power and can't charge the battery, so irrelevant in the context of charging.
The writing is basically on the wall for CHAdeMO in the US. Hyundai could have chosen CHAdeMO for their Ioniq, but didn't. I'm going to throw out the prediction when the next gen Soul comes it'll also have CCS.
The amount of CHAdeMO chargers may out number CCS, but it's still far from a long distance network. VW's investment will pretty much be the biggest growth of non-Tesla DC charging. The initial stage will still use dual standard chargers, but the settlement does not require them (VW can change according to market conditions). So now is the ripe time to pick one standard rather than have this battle continue into the next gen.
I don't have confidence Nissan will hold its own and be able to prop up CHAdeMO (optional on Leaf), even with help from the Soul EV (standard). Currently, the Bolt (optional), e-Golf (standard), i3 (standard), Ioniq (standard) all have CCS.
Ulmo
Active Member
I dream of a plug with dynamic pins and needles, sockets and holes, that forms to whatever it's plugged in to, and adapts to its standards; a uniplug, capable of handling any amount and type of power, whatever the country, town, or network.And if you count China, there are four high-speed DC standards, they have GB/T.
Ulmo
Active Member
That all seems so false.Then the one to drop in the US should be SAE Combo aka Combo1 flavor of CCS. CHAdeMO installations far outnumber SAE Combo, a standard which should never have existed in the first place and which has had had very lukewarm to no support from some of it's backers (e.g. GM Won't Fund CCS Fast-Charging Sites For 2017 Chevy Bolt EV, Spark EV w/optional SAE Combo was sold in only 2 states, Ford having nothing supporting SAE Combo until recently, Mercedes and FCA shipping nothing w/SAE Combo in the US, etc.)
The slow 24 kW charge rate of these SAE Combo only DC chargers doesn't help much from a long distance network POV: CPE100 and Bosch & BMW Announce 24 kW DC Charger For North America At $9,995.
Nissan now owns a controlling stake in Mitsubishi Motors.
Nissan Seals $2.3 Billion Mitsubishi Motors Stake Deal
Nissan Completes Takeover of Mitsubishi, Keeping Its Embattled Chief
Press Release | News･Events | MITSUBISHI MOTORS
Kia Soul EV has CHAdeMO. Outlander PHEV (n/a in the US, still) has CHAdeMO. JDM Prius Prime also has CHAdeMO. For some reason, Toyota omitted it from the US version.
Right now, CCS is the universally supported charger type for any non-legacy DC fast charging electric car model (legacy being Tesla, Nissan and very very few others). Only the legacy electric car models support anything else (Chademo for everything except Tesla which has Tesla). Therefore, going forward, everything needs to support CCS.
Because of this, many of us who see this CCS trend say the following, that if CCS is to be taken seriously, it should be coupled with:
- CCS to Chademo adapter that works on all models that take Chademo (should be able to daisy-chain CCS->Chademo->Tesla adapters even)
- CCS to Tesla adapter
Perhaps in the future some type of supercooled plug and socket combination with a cooling envelope around the connected plug could actually connect superconductors in the plug to socket connections themselves, with the appropriate squeezes, blankets, cleaning, etc., to stay reliable, and all of this in a very small plug. For instance, signalling could be via fiber optics and extremely tiny and thin in the cable, and the superconductors would also be flex type, and then surrounded by appropriate fluids to keep the connection cold. The plug could be very small, holding only the male part of the optics and the superconducting pins. The pins could be enveloped by the female socket in such a way the female then shrouds it properly, keeping it safe, while an insulation from the female goes around all of that and meets up with the skin of the insulation of the supercooling male plug. This could all be done to keep that connection highly frigid and cold which of course is optimum for the electrons to flow at full speed into the car battery as precisely demanded by the car battery management system. I could see such a system offering a very thin and light weight cord and plug, but it would have to be immaculately engineered and designed. (Somehow, I'm oddly reminded of my oft-repeated adage that "looking at biology for inspiration is very helpful in understanding our next few decades of technological progress".)
Until then, whatever. CCS, etc. Why not. Just provide the adapters.
Fast DC above is all for trips, breaks, stops, shopping, errands, unplanned travels, and appointments.
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For longer-term parking such as work shifts, Level 2 is the minimum to even give me half a charge in my car. I find that most Level 2 are 6kW, and too slow. 10kW would be better.
Work parking needs a few things:
- Every parking spot should have a Level 2 plug.
- Every Level 2 plug or charger should be natural supply matched to instant available solar and wind energy, and other available energy. This is called, opposite to what it is, "demand response", by the dumb utilities, if you want to look up the topic in Google, but they are very slowly getting more sophisticated, so more appropriate words are slowly and incrementally creeping into their "smart grid" language. It's getting better, but not because the utilities are visionary about doing the right thing; they're being dragged kicking and screaming the whole way, and no one will help you.
- The high utility "demand charges" charged to businesses in the electrical tariffs should be eliminated for parking that is served by natural supply that is controlled by the exact amount of supply available at the moment. This is a paradigm shift for utility billing that has to happen and probably has only happened for the biggest of corporations so far who have bigger negotiating clout and sophisticated energy accounting infrastructure in which they can absorb those types of things without any real pain as opposed to the rest of businesses which would be absolutely killed to provide the correct amount of car charging.
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I think we are in agreement. The point is to match the power with the usage. L1 charging should be good for most work situations, but I didn't mean to exclude any L2 ports. We had 8 L2s, but no official L1s, for a site of several thousand employees. The L2s are certainly useful, and required for some. We had one guy who drove his Leaf to work, with a 1-way distance of about 75% of his range. L2 required there. But I expect they could have put in a significant number of simple 120v / 20 amp plugs, and it would have reduced stress and work interruptions by being able to just plug in and leave the car alone. EVs aren't going to get accepted broadly if we have to keep pampering or being inconvenienced by them. I love it that my Roadster came with magic elves that fill it up every night while I'm sleeping. Matching the charging to the usage will help with adoption.
To the point of this thread, having Tesla make their cars compatible with CCS will help align them for opportunistic charging at places like shopping centers and restaurants. Unfortunately, I expect that if such an adapter could be made (legally, etc.) then I think it would have been by now. So just as my Roadster can't participate in the super charging network, it appears that the MS/X can't do CCS either. At least locally, most of the new CCS installs are dual with CHAdeMO, so there is that as a transition. Hopefully the Model 3, and perhaps future MS/X models will have CCS as an option, if not standard, to align with what (arguably - don't shoot me!) appears to be the next public charging standard.
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DC FCing is optional on the e-Golf. They introduced the a cheaper trim where it's optional. See Volkswagen Announces Addition Of Cheaper $29,815, Entry-Level e-Golf For 2016. Go to The e-Golf is all Golf. No gas tank. VW does electric. and Build Yours. select the SE and eventually, you'll see DC FC inlet is $1675 extra.
6 kW isn't too slow for workplace charging. On most days, I charge my Leaf only to 80%. I almost never charge at home. If I charge to 80%, go home then return to work, my car's done within 2 hours, usually 1 to 1.5 hours.
On some days, I've plugged in 8 to 10 other cars at work. Almost all of them despite our supply voltage being 208 volts and Chargepoint L2 EVSEs being 30 amps max are done within 2.5 or 3 hours, or less. Not many cars are still charging at the 4 hour mark.
A bottleneck is so many vehicles w/low wattage OBCs like every single PHEV I've plugged in. They've got 3.6 kW OBCs (e.g. Gen 2 Volt), at best. The gen 1 Volt w/3.3 kW OBC ends up pulling only ~3.1 kW (@ 208 volts). The very popular Ford PHEVs also don't seem to go higher than ~3.3 kW. And, we have some Spark EVs w/the same crappy OBC as the gen 1 Volt.
The few PHEVs that higher wattage OBCs we don't even have at my work (e.g. Accord PHEV).
Most of us are at work for at least 8 hours/day. I think 0 or close to 0 people commute from so far away that 48 kWh from the wall (e.g. 8 hours at 6 kW) is insufficient. We do have 6 Tesla HPWCs in one garage (I hear they're on a 100 amp circuit, so 80 amps max). and a couple in another that we don't really occupying much of anymore.
If one goes out to any bank of our EVSEs by 1 or 1:30 pm, virtually every plug there has finished its first session of the day and some will have begun their 2nd session of the day.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I was going by memory. I do remember it changing, but I thought it changed the other way (originally optional and made standard like i3).
What makes it "universally supported"? The largest installed based of EVs that can be DC FCed in the US (including Teslas, since they can use an adapter) would be CHAdeMO.
Some of the automakers that were behind pushing CCS don't even bother shipping vehicles with it in the US. Some of them don't care about expanding its infrastructure or only provide EVs in under a dozen states (e.g. e-Golf is basically only available in CARB emission states) or sell token quantities of EVs (e.g. see Focus Electric sales at Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard, which only got DC FCing with the 2017 model year).
Here in the SF bay area, and sure L.A. and other large metropolitan areas are like this, people travel some pretty good distances from home to work. Our electrician lives in Los Banos in the central valley and does jobs any where and everywhere around the east bay, south bay and peninsula. It's people like him especially that could greatly benefit from fast DC charging especially traveling from job to job and no real down time to sit and wait for a charge away from a job site.
I get the slow charging at hotels overnight which is great if you get a spot overnight but if you check in late and all the chargers are taken, it really leaves you with a dilemma in the morning when the overnight cars are gone. Do you sit there and charge or do you partially charge and hope to make it to a fast charger somewhere else and compete with daytime travelers using them. As more EVs hit the road and stay at hotels, think how many more customers you can accommodate and help get on their way with a faster charger.
I get the slow charging at hotels overnight which is great if you get a spot overnight but if you check in late and all the chargers are taken, it really leaves you with a dilemma in the morning when the overnight cars are gone. Do you sit there and charge or do you partially charge and hope to make it to a fast charger somewhere else and compete with daytime travelers using them. As more EVs hit the road and stay at hotels, think how many more customers you can accommodate and help get on their way with a faster charger.
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There are really at least 6 different DC plugs. See Chevy Spark EV Forum • View topic - DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger, etc. for a visual aid.
In Ontario Canada there is a big gov sponsored push to get hundreds of charging stations installed all around. The goal was something like 400 by last March but they missed that by a long shot. Around 100 if I remember correctly are supposed to be L3 DCFC.
If chademo is on its way out then why bother installing those... although the plans show many of them are in fact chademo or chademo/CCS combo. I'm worried they going to install all these chademo, nobody is going to use them. And then not understanding the dynamics say "well looks like EV isn't as big as we thought, let's cancel the whole program".
What we really need is a single standard and it appears CCS is the one. Which tells me we need a CCS adapter.
If chademo is on its way out then why bother installing those... although the plans show many of them are in fact chademo or chademo/CCS combo. I'm worried they going to install all these chademo, nobody is going to use them. And then not understanding the dynamics say "well looks like EV isn't as big as we thought, let's cancel the whole program".
What we really need is a single standard and it appears CCS is the one. Which tells me we need a CCS adapter.
I agree L2 is preferable.... however if you consider most work days to be 9-5, it would seem that even a 6kW charging station is capable of delivering 54kWh over the course of a workday. That would be half a charge for even the largest EV battery currently out there. ( A Tesla 100kWh pack).
Ideally perhaps. But parking garages have hundreds of spots. I'm not sure that will ever really be practical.
What I suspect is a more needed is a sufficient number of L2 spots at work locations to bridge the gap until long range EV's are the norm. The real need at this point is to allow EV's to gain sufficient charge to make the return trip, and that's largely dependent on range.
If I don't need the juice, I don't expect my workplace to subsidize my transportation costs. I'll use it if available and not in contention (we have a system at work to yield the EV spots to those who need them on a given day). But I suspect that EV spots at the workplace will always be a subset of total spots for most organizations.
Yup, we are indeed in agreement... that makes sense.
I think that transportation hubs are one of the places that L1 outlets make sense. An airport parking garage with 50-100 120V/20A plugs at the far end would be great.
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