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Why Tesla don't make a CCS adapter like Chademo?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by ggnykk, Sep 2, 2016.

  1. ggnykk

    ggnykk Active Member

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    I came across this news article (Number Of CCS Combo Chargers In Europe Now Exceed 2,400) from Insideev that show the popularity of CCS DC fast charging station in Europe. Tesla already has special adapter for Chademo for Tesla owner to purchase. But why not make one also for CCS? Granted that some locations are actually multi-standard that contains both Chademo and CCS. But I would think more charging location and more choices is better for EV adoption.
     
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  2. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

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    Do you remember how long it took Tesla to make the CHAdeMO adapter? Sure a CCS adapter would be nice for a few people but Tesla has many other priorities now.
     
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  3. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    I suspect we'll see one in within the next year or so - either as a second stand alone adapter or as new firmware for the CHAdeMO unit plus a physical adapter for it.

    A couple of Tesla folks have said they'd make one if they felt it would be useful; back when they released the CHAdeMO adapter there weren't all that many CCS stations around.
     
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  4. dhanson865

    dhanson865 Active Member

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    #4 dhanson865, Sep 2, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2016
    around here they are installing chademo and CCS at the same time as paired stations

    [​IMG]
    If you have Chademo already why bother with CCS?

    Whatever reason you can think of becomes less and less important as superchargers and HPWC cover more and more of the landscape.

    * Supercharger is better than
    * HPWC is better than
    * Chademo is faster than
    * random L2 EVSE is better than
    * random L1 EVSE

    and those are all over the place. I don't see why we need to add CCS to the mix.

    I put up with Chademo as a necesarry emergency evil option but every chademo around me is insanely overpriced.

    I charge at home for less than half the cost of gasoline. If I charge on Chademo around here they charge 20-50 times that rate (the less you need the more onerous the per charge fee is).
     
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  5. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    Just not a priority. Most ccs stations, at least in the us, are Chademo as well.
     
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  6. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    It should be far easier to make a CCS adapter than it was to make the CHAdeMO adapter. However, there needs to be a demand for it. I've never seen one in the wild. Once almost every Tesla owner is wanting it, then they'll develop it. Also it's probably a good idea to let the standard and chargers bake for a while to reduce the possibility of having to do it twice.
     
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  7. jbcarioca

    jbcarioca Active Member

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    This probably is inevitable since Tesla is a full member of the CharIN consortium that developed the standard.
    News: Charging Interface Initiative e. V. (CharIN e. V.)
    The standard does anticipate very fast charging but actual deployment in large numbers will probably happen around 2019 as the Europeans begin their massive new BEV introductions.

    Given the lead times I doubt Tesla will rush to offer adapters unless there is agitation, probably from European-BEV owners, maybe influenced by gradual development of CCS stations in countries that have more European-centric offerings. Places like Brazil that have a handful of CHAdeMO to support fleet Leaf and CCS, to support the less-than-handful of BMW i3/i8 in place, could well be ones in which Tesla would have adapters rather than a Supercharger network. That is speculation, of course, but might explain part of the Tesla motivation to join CharIN.
     
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  8. renim

    renim Member

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    Fundamentally it is significantly more difficult to make a CCS adapter than a Chademo adapter.

    Chademo + GBT (China standard) + Tesla SsuperCharger are all CAN bus based standards, and due to that commonality is simpler and more reliable to make adapters for.

    CCS is a different creature, modem signals are sent over the AC portion of the adapter to control the DC power.
     
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  9. Lesifass

    Lesifass Member

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    CCS is quite common around here, and since a new law mandates that every new fast charging station needs a CCS charger for each stall, that won't change. Even new superchargers are required to have a CCS plug for each stall.

    So a CCS adapter could be pretty useful quite soon in Europe. Maybe even native CCS support for 2017 Model S/X/3.
     
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  10. jbcarioca

    jbcarioca Active Member

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    Agreed, but CCS also has myriad methodologies for pricing/access etc, and, while not so easy as CHAdeMO it is a quite broadly accepted standard that Tesla is committed too. Certainly the Superchargers will continue, but Tesla will find a way for CCS. As you imply, this will be a difficult implementation so nobody should be holding their breath. I'll be surprised if Tesla does not find a way before Model 3 hits Europe.
     
  11. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    IMHO, there is no point to Tesla making a CCS adapter until there are charging stations installed in public that exceed 50kW. Other automakers are pushing CCS charging to 100kW and 150kW in the relatively near term. The current CHAdeMO adapter is limited to 125 amps. If Tesla is going to go to the effort to make a CCS adapter it should be capable of 200 or 300 amps, like a SuperCharger is. I believe that is the reason that Tesla joined the CCS trade group, so they would have advance notice and access to documents so they could make this happen.
     
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  12. Alketi

    Alketi Member

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  13. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #13 stopcrazypp, Sep 3, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2016
    However, CHAdeMO also has an extra analog handshake via extra pins, and the CAN protocol is not compatible with Tesla's (which is why the adapter has to be so huge). The first part of the Tesla handshake is actually exactly like CCS uses (although superchargers use CAN instead of PLC after switching to digital).

    If Tesla makes a CCS adapter, I would expect the PLC being already done on the car side. As long as that is handled, then a very simple physical adapter similar to the J1772 AC adapter should be possible (unlike CHAdeMO which must rely on an active adapter given pin incompatibility). Straubel was quoted as saying the car was compatible with the CCS protocol, when asked in an SAE interview if they will have combo support (although obviously not active right now). Given they are also part of the CCS group now developing the next gen, they probably have full access to the most current version (even ones under development).

    I would imagine the lack of such an adapter is simply low demand at the moment (given they already have CHAdeMO) and that they have other huge engineering priorities on their plate (dealing with Model X production issues and getting ready for Model 3). Even the CHAdeMO adapter took forever to come out.
     
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  14. jbcarioca

    jbcarioca Active Member

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    As I mentioned earlier, I don't expect a CCS adapter Michael before European BEV production takes off, when the CCS stations spread quickly in Europe, North América and elsewhere. There is no reason to rush. Anyway there must be payment agreements prior to really widespread adoption.
     
  15. cwerdna

    cwerdna Active Member

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    But you're in New York, not Europe.

    Go look on Plugshare and compare CHAdeMO coverage vs. SAE Combo coverage in the US and in your area. How many SAE Combo only vs. CHAdeMO only vs. being dual standard?

    Of the SAE Combo only, how many are the low powered 24 kW (BMW Launches New Low Cost DC Fast Chargers From $6,458) units? (The price listed is subsidized for BMW dealers and partners.) How about higher than 24 kW SAE Combo only (not dual standard)?
     
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  16. jbcarioca

    jbcarioca Active Member

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    Candidly the question is not about today. There are more than 100 unique models of BEV and PHEV being launched in the next three years by BMW group, Mercedes-Benz and the group and VW Group alone plus many more from other manufacturers that will all be CCS-capable. That is when the CCS networks will really blossom. Today I see minimal reason for a CCS adapter because most worldwide CCS locations today have CHAdeMO and/or J1772 also. The speeds of CCS are not yet anywhere near the ultra-fast ones of which CCS is capable either.
     
  17. davewill

    davewill Member

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    In the U.S. CHAdeMO greatly outnumbers CCS, and a lot of those CCS stations are dual as has been pointed out. Also, I think the main impetus for development of the adapter was the Japanese market, where it is pretty much essential. Once Tesla committed to doing the engineering, selling it elsewhere simply made sense.

    Tesla will do CCS when and if they decide they need to offer it and not before.

    Not sure where you got the notion that a 20kW HPWC is better than a 50kW CHAdeMO. Sure a Supercharger is better, but there are tons of places that Superchargers may not go for a long time.
     
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  18. cwerdna

    cwerdna Active Member

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    Well, let's see them and their track record, so far in terms of DC FCing EVs and PHEVs in the US.

    See June 2016 Dashboard - HybridCars.com and http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/EV-comparison-v90-24082016.jpg (from Compare EVs) for models in terms of being even capable of DC Fcing.

    Audi (VW Group): 0
    BMW: Only the i3 has it. Was optional at the beginning then the inlet became standard. CHAdeMO is standard on the Japanese i3. The rest (e.g. X5, i8, 3-series plug-in) can't be DC FCed.
    Mercedes: 0
    Porsche (VW Group): 0
    VW: 1 model has it optional

    And, GM, a "supporter" right now their only DC FC capable vehicle, the CA compliance car Spark EV that ships in tiny numbes: GM Won't Fund CCS Fast-Charging Sites For 2017 Chevy Bolt EV.

    Ford, another supporter finally will support CCS w/the 2017 Focus Electric. I haven't heard any plans for them to support DC FC infrastructure, but see June 2016 Dashboard - HybridCars.com for their minuscule sales numbers, despite it having been available for years and "nationwide".
     
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  19. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #19 stopcrazypp, Sep 4, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
    Nitpick on the VW. DC charging was standard for the e-Golf since 2014. It was only made optional this year with the introduction of a cheaper SE trim.
    Volkswagen Announces Addition Of Cheaper $29,815, Entry-Level e-Golf For 2016

    Also the CHAdeMO situation isn't super good either. You have only 3 models with CHAdeMO:
    1) Nissan Leaf (always optional)
    2) Mitsubishi iMIEV (optional from launch, standard starting 2014), but with almost non-existent sales since launch
    3) Kia Soul EV (standard), but is a compliance car that sells in less volume than the Spark EV does.

    Comparing sales volume YTD 2016, CHAdeMO (optional or standard) has 6426, CCS (optional or standard) has 6114. If the Focus EV joins as a CCS model, then CCS can overtake CHAdeMO even in the US. Hyundai also said the Ioniq will be using CCS in the US (which implies the Soul might switch also), leaving Nissan carrying the torch for CHAdeMO alone (given the recent Mitsubishi merger with Nissan).
     
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  20. cwerdna

    cwerdna Active Member

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    But there's also the much larger installed base of vehicles in the US w/CHAdeMO than SAE Combo. And, Teslas can use CHAdeMO with Tesla — CHAdeMO Adapter.
     

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