Why Tesla Will Fail

[Zhelko Dimic]

Yep.

I was tolerant of this sort of stuff when Tesla was a new company. Five years later, it's gotten *worse*. The problem is 100% management (the bottom-end techs are all good). Elon undervalues middle management skills at his peril. If they can't fix their endemic communications problems in the service departments -- and it's gotten continuously worse over five years -- then opening up the service manuals to independent shops would ease the burden. But apparently they're also unwilling to do that for no-good-reason.

I'd buy an inferior electric car (with the minimum required range specs and thermal battery control, of course) just to avoid dealing with this *bullcrap*. Others will make that choice too.

Very much agreed. Couple of incidents like that made me worried if Tesla would mature as it should. There is still plenty of time, but I'd prefer they pick the pace.
For example, I never heard back on a bug I reported 6+months ago, and this is a bug that looked quite serious.
I'm not going to describe it, as it could be blown into more than it is, but really, not a peep?
And that manager/developer that received bug submission, knows I have pictures to prove it... He can't know how I'm gonna use that info, so it would make sense to show more care...

 

[Zhelko Dimic]

Good luck with that one. Porsche has substantial problems with new technology also. All manufacturers do.

Ooooo, yeah!
No way I'm buying anyone's but Tesla's electric car until there are few years of battery and other data for that car.
I mean, in the last 50 years Porsche managed to have fatal flows with every, (no, really) EVERY of their engines except 9A1 gen. (2009+ DFI). I love Porsches, I have couple of the older ones, but they are one of the last companies I would buy electric car from, in the first few years. Failures are going to be spectacular...

I mean, I criticize Tesla in previous post and now implicitly give it compliments? To clarify, Tesla is in a good place, but they can and should do better. Bar is very low because car industry hss been complacent for 50 years...

 

[dhanson865]

To be honest, I can't fathom why someone at Tesla would promise to download your out of warranty vehicle logs over the air, analyze them and give you a call back. Since we both know that is unreasonable and doesn't make any sense, we shouldn't be expecting resolution on that no matter what we hear on the phone. If I was that person's manager I would be chastising them for setting impossible blue moon promises.

What we CAN do however is expect them to warranty work already performed. If your heater/seals was supposed to be fixed and isn't, you have a paper trail for them to evaluate and honor.

"Throwing parts at the problem" may very well be the best practice/recommended/only way to solve X problem. That's such a vague, all encompassing slam across all dealers, and all manufacturers. Something may need parts, some may not. Some may need small parts, some may need big parts. Your mileage may vary..

You have a warranty. Warranty last for x long and covers y. After that, you are expected to pay z for parts plus labor.

I do not see why Tesla should be held to a higher standard than any other auto manufacturer in that respect.

$125 an hour is pricey but I bet so is the technician working on your car as well. Whether we like it or not, that is part of the cost of ownership. If you are unwilling to pay them, you should not expect anything from them.

As a general pro-tip, one can generally receive discounts if they are very cordial to the people they deal with. It's a potential bonus but not a guaranteed one.

Hey, you know what other auto manufactures do that helps us with out of warranty cars? They provide service manuals and they sell individual parts (to a greater extent than Tesla does). Tesla doesn't allow end users or 3rd party technicians access to the service manual (except in Massachusetts) and even then they charge you for it and some fixes require tools only Tesla has or parts only Tesla will sell you in total assembly groups not part by part.

I really don't think @FlyingCookie would be dealing with the Tesla guys if he could download a PDF or equivalent that had all the specs, parts, diagnostic procedures, parts replacement procedures in it.

I don't pay Toyota or Nissan to work on my cars because I can do it myself and I can go to any one of a dozen 3rd party shops that will do it for me for less than half the cost the dealer wants for the same work.

If Tesla wants to be the only one to work on Tesla's they either need to do it cheaper than the traditional dealers do or they need to provide parts and information just like traditional car manufacturers do.

That's not a higher standard, that is asking for equal availability to repair a vehicle.

 

[dhanson865]

So while I love my car, my service experience in my 1+ year of ownership has not met expectations

Up until my latest appointment last Thursday my displeasure over my few service experiences was limited to loaners

On one appointment it took 3 loaners. The 1st, a Mercedes, was stalling at lights and a service nag kept coming on that indicated the car was 1100 miles due for service. We returned that, got a Volvo that seemed ok until about half way home in a driving rain when ants starting appearing from vents,etc. They drove a Kia to our home and tho not a model S it was fine

So Thursday it was going in because the defroster failed badly on one of the few times we needed it here in So Cal. It was actually a bit of a safety hazard and was so cold we had to turn it off
Dropped it off, got a Mustang ragtop with 36k this time. Apparently tough to get a Tesla loaner at Costa Mesa. But that was ok

So they said tentatively we would get the car on Friday. I called Friday midday and was told it would be next week now.

That part that annoys me is I had app access to my car from when I dropped it off right up until I called today mid afternoon for a status. They said they hadn’t found any problems yet. At that time my app access became unavailable. I strongly suspect the car just sat there from Thursday until when I called today.

I just wish the communication and honesty would improve. If they were that busy they shouldn't have taken the car in. And we waited 2+ weeks for that appointment

Update
Just as I’m writing this I get a text that they now need a valve block and hope to get it by Thursday
Yikes

If you know, what would a valve block do.?

valve block is used for hydraulic lines to control the flow of fluid. I think the quote below for "block and bleed manifold" applies but a valve block is just a more complex example of the concept.

A Block and bleed manifold is a hydraulic manifold that combines one or more block/isolate valves, usually ball valves, and one or more bleed/vent valves, usually ball or needle valves, into one component for interface with other components (pressure measurement transmitters, gauges, switches, etc.) of a hydraulic (fluid) system.

I'd assume the block in question allows warm fluid to move to the defroster system when the defroster is on, and disables movement in that system when defroster is off. Just like a faucet in your house but smaller and with no user controls directly on the valve.

 

[JRP3]

The Tesla heat flow diagram I've seen doesn't show any fluid used in the hvac system, just a ptc resistance element.

 

[bak_phy]

So, the service center I've been using refuses to make an appointment and says the NY mobile service team will call me.

Here's your problem! You didn't know or forgot that no part of Tesla has outgoing phone lines.

 

[Jhawkgirl]

This is why Tesla will fail -- not this year, not next year, but in a few years. It's just one story, but unfortunately it's representative.

Mid-december, the latch fails shut on my rear right door. I call up the service center I've been using to tell them that the latch is stuck shut (can't be opened from the inside or outside). They tell me that top management at Tesla (aka idiots) have told them they can't service my area any more and that I have to be directed to the "New York Mobile Service Team".

Now, there's no upstate NY service center. This is because Tesla top management (aka idiots) have *chosen* not to build one. It is legal for them to build one -- there is a limit on the number of stores, but no limit on the number of service centers. They are lying about this to their technicians, incidentally.

So, the service center I've been using refuses to make an appointment and says the NY mobile service team will call me. They refuse to give me the phone number for the NY mobile service team. They say they'll report my problem and order the part to be delivered to the NY mobile service team. I emphasize that it's the *latch*.

The NY mobile service team doesn't call me back after several weeks. I call the service center again and yell at them. This time I manage to get a phone number for the NY mobile service team. I call them. They say "our computer system says we tried to call you". They never tried to call me -- their computer system is lying. They say the parts came in a week ago (but they never bothered to call me....) I tell them *again* (since it's different people) that the problem is that the *latch* is stuck and ask them to make sure they have ordered the parts for the latch. "Omar" assures me that they have the parts for the latch. At this point, about four weeks after I first called, I am finally able to make an appointment. There is then a further delay because my schedule doesn't allow for an appointment in the next week (but would have in the earlier weeks which Tesla wasted).

Come today, the service tech shows up. He doesn't have the parts for the latch, because nobody ever wrote down that they were supposed to get the parts for the latch. Complete waste of time. I yell at the NY mobile service team guy (Omar), who lied to me, who now claims that the order regarding the stuck latch was never entered in his computer. I ask and he won't give me his manager's number. Or the number of the idiot in top management who ordered that we get all our mobile service through this idiot division. He says he'll talk to his manager -- we'll see.

This is par for the course with Tesla service. I have been dealing with this crap for five years, and it gets worse and worse every time. Meanwhile, the software team breaks basic functionality in updates (such as USB music playback).

This is going to kill the company. Not now, but as soon as there are other decent electric cars on the market -- ones where you can go to *independent service shops*.

They've had five years to fix this sort of crap and they've only made it worse. My advice to investors at this point is to hold on now, but dump the stock before 2020 if they don't fix the chronic and ever-worsening service problems.

It's not the bottom-line technicians. They're all fine. It's top management failure. There's no internal communications: information does not get passed from one person to another, and any one person who screws up the information ruins everything. The only way to get good service is to talk directly to the service tech who is going to do the work on your car. The only way to get a software bug fixed is to find the programmer who is responsible for fixing it. And Tesla does their best to *prevent* you from talking to the people you need to talk to.

I have an 8 month old X. Customer service totally sucks. I have had to drive to Portland, OR (600 mi round trip) FOUR times at my own expense (have to stay the night as it is a 5 hour one way trip with having to charge in the middle each way). Service dept is in an expensive part of town to stay in and they don't even negotiate a rate at the closest hotel. In addition the mobile guy has been here 2 times. On the last issue (falcon doors leak-actually pour water on the backseat passengers if opened when it is raining) I reported issue in November, they said they would order parts and call me...no word. I call them at the end of December..oh yes, one seal came in but we are waiting for the other...no word...I call again mid-January. Oh, yes, they are here-when do you want to bring the car in (like I live down the block). Service guys have been great on site, but trying to get assistance is a PITA. Most expensive mistake I have ever made buying this car...

 

[Curt Renz]

This is why Tesla will fail -- not this year, not next year, but in a few years. It's just one story, but unfortunately it's representative...

The heart of the problem for Tesla car owners in upstate New York appears to be that the state severely limits the number of Tesla stores allowed in the state. With the vast majority of the state's population concentrated around New York City, naturally that is where Tesla will place the few stores that are allowed. Since most of the state's Tesla car owners live near those stores, that is where the service centers will also be. The lack of Tesla stores in upstate New York and the resultant dearth of Tesla car owners there leads to service centers not making economic sense in that area.

The solution of course is for the state to stop restricting the number of stores. The greater miscreants appear to be New York state legislators and dealer lobbies rather then Tesla executives. I suggest a more vigorous campaign to change the restrictive law.

 

[idealsol]

So while I love my car, my service experience in my 1+ year of ownership has not met expectations

Up until my lastest appointment last Thursday my displeasure over my few service experiences was limited to loaners
On one appointment it took 3 loaners. The 1st, a Mercedes, was stalling at lights and a service nag kept coming on that indicated the car was 1100 miles due for service. We returned that, got a Volvo that seemed ok until about half way home in a driving rain when ants starting appearing from vents,etc. They drove a Kia to our home and tho not a model S it was fine

So Thursday it was going in because the defroster failed badly on one of the few times we needed it here in So Cal. It was actually a bit of a safety hazard and was so cold we had to turn it off
Dropped it off, got a Mustang ragtop with 36k this time. Apparently tough to get a Tesla loaner at Costa Mesa. But that was ok
So they said tentatively we would get the car on Friday. I called Friday midday and was told it would be next week now
That part that annoys me is I had app access to my car from when I dropped it off right up until I called today mid afternoon for a status. They said they hadn’t found any problems yet. At that time my app access became unavailable. I strongly suspect the car just sat there from Thursday until when I called today
I just wish the communication and honesty would improve. If they were that busy they should’nt have taken the car in. And we waited 2+ weeks for that apppointment

Update
Just as I’m writing this I get a text that they now need a valve block and hope to get it by Thursday
Yikes

If you know, what would a valve block do.?

So to further update
The valve block has to do with the air suspension. A small concern I had was that on fast acceleration I felt a vibration. They determined that to be an air suspension problem
So it looks like they will have my car for a while
To their credit, when I called to find out about the valve block, I also mentioned I really needed better than the Mustang loaner for clients over next few days. They accommodated me and I swapped to a Tesla loaner this morning

 

[JRP3]

The heart of the problem for Tesla car owners in upstate New York appears to be that the state severely limits the number of Tesla stores allowed in the state.

True, but I would guess there are enough Tesla owners upstate to warrant a centrally located service center, which would also help drive sales for those on the fence because of concerns about service. Not that Tesla needs my business at this time but potential service issues have me seriously considering delaying my Model 3 purchase. As badly as I've wanted a Tesla I have no desire to spend hours traveling for service.

 

[Curt Renz]

True, but I would guess there are enough Tesla owners upstate to warrant a centrally located service center, which would also help drive sales for those on the fence because of concerns about service. Not that Tesla needs my business at this time but potential service issues have me seriously considering delaying my Model 3 purchase. As badly as I've wanted a Tesla I have no desire to spend hours traveling for service.

I can certainly understand those not near Tesla stores or service centers putting off purchase of Tesla cars until the situation improves. Meanwhile, Tesla production remains far from being able to keep up with demand. Until that circumstance and the laws in some states change, some people in outlying areas will have to either put up with service hassles or consider waiting before buying a Tesla car.

 

[Curt Renz]

This is why Tesla will fail -- not this year, not next year, but in a few years. It's just one story, but unfortunately it's representative.

As you note, it is just one story in a matter of high importance to you. So apparently Tesla has failed for you. That does not mean it will eventually fail as a business. Growing pains are inevitable for a young company. Such anecdotal commentary may have been well suited in another section of this forum, but in my opinion the assertion in the subject line is particularly out of place in the investor's section.

 

[Olle]

Car Brands Ranked by Owner Satisfaction

How can Tesla top the customer satisfaction surveys despite what's mentioned in this thread? For me personally the cars' features and qualities far outweighed the pain of a disastrous delivery process (my first Tesla was crashed during delivery and attempted to be hidden from me and the second one was delivered to a different city, meanwhile, nobody at Tesla responded to email or phone call regarding where the car was, for several weeks. Once I found out and finally got to talk to someone he laughed it off and chuckled "sometimes we have the wrong address in our shipping system").
Service on my Teslas was sometimes really great and sometimes mediocre, on balance overweight towards good. Also the trend is good. It seems service has become a lot better and faster lately.

• Delivery=Disaster on both my Teslas.
• The cars=Really, really, really awesome
• Service=Good

IMHO, once revenues are up in a couple of years they should be able to afford a better delivery and service process. They won't fail.

 

[TSLAholic]

@neroden

I didn't read the entire thread, so I hope this wasn't already mentioned, but have you contacted your legislators about Senate Bill 6600 and Assembly Bill 8248? This is something you would benefit from directly as Tesla would be allowed to extend their state presence to 15 locations. More retail locations translates to more business in the immediate area, which leads to additional service centers.

 

[jddssc121]

Good luck to find SC on a long trip...

I don't use my Tesla for long road trips, and I don't plan on using a Mission E for long trips either.

I'm not crapping on Superchargers, I think they are a huge differentiator for Tesla. I'm just saying i personally don't need them for my use case.

Ooooo, yeah!

I mean, in the last 50 years Porsche managed to have fatal flows with every, (no, really) EVERY of their engines except 9A1 gen. (2009+ DFI). I love Porsches, I have couple of the older ones, but they are one of the last companies I would buy electric car from, in the first few years. Failures are going to be spectacular...

Oh yes, I have many rear main seal stories. And a few "stop ship" ones too. But Porsche's customer service has always been stellar. And that's what this post is about isn't it? If Tesla vehicles were near flawless, then it would be a whole other discussion. But if I am buying into an issue plagued vehicle either way, I'd rather experience consistently good customer service instead of sub par service.

 

[mongo]

@neroden

I didn't read the entire thread, so I hope this wasn't already mentioned, but have you contacted your legislators about Senate Bill 6600 and Assembly Bill 8248? This is something you would benefit from directly as Tesla would be allowed to extend their state presence to 15 locations. More retail locations translates to more business in the immediate area, which leads to additional service centers.

From @neroden 's first post

So, the service center I've been using refuses to make an appointment and says the NY mobile service team will call me.

While having a local service center would remove the "we don't service your region any more" issue. It does not solve the competence level issue. Likely partly due to understaffing, but a little communication and accountability goes a long way. Using an issue tracker like in the SW world would let all parties see the status and progress of service and repairs.

Tesla does have an extra issue in that all showrooms are Tesla, so there is no "bad dealership" excuse available. Still, it comes down to the customer facing people and their ability to communicate, facilitate, and not exacerbate.

 

[dieicher]

I bought a 2017 Model S last August (new). It developed a problem with one side-view mirror motor wasn't working right. I reported it to the service center in MSP, they told me they had a technician for the entire state of Iowa, he is based in Council Bluffs. He called me as asked to schedule a time when he sound drive over to Cedar Rapids and fix the mirror. He showed up on time for the appointment, he replaced the mirror in about 30 minutes in my driveway, and he was the most friendly and knowledgeable people I've ever met, I enjoyed working with him. It could not imagine how it could be been better.

Maybe Tesla has addressed the issues, or is working on them?

 

[JRP3]

Since Jan 29, the date of the original post?

 

[verygreen]

spotify sometimes plays only 2 songs

Common problem if you use your phone to start some station or some such - apparently only a song or two transfers, not the whole playlist.

That part that annoys me is I had app access to my car from when I dropped it off right up until I called today mid afternoon for a status. They said they hadn’t found any problems yet. At that time my app access became unavailable. I strongly suspect the car just sat there from Thursday until when I called today

Yeah, they are really bad about it and I experienced it many times (and I was not a normal customer, I could actually see what there were doing).

Things like:
- We looked at your car and ... (car sat in the SC parking lot for days, nobody looked at it).
- Your car was dispatched to the bodyshop this morning (car at SC parking lot for a couple of days, suddenly in 30 minutes I can see it's moving towards the bodyshop)
- We are replacing ... (car is in the parking lot, nothing is being done).
- Car returned with some items in the invoice listed as performed, but actually - not (makes you wonder what else they did not do and claimed they did that was not as easy to verify).

Don't forget all the "we hope to get the parts in two days"... a week later when I call "oh, the parts did not come but we hope to get them in two days, we'll call you", ... a week passes by...

 

[FlatSix911]

Not good news for the Sales and Service organization going forward ...
Tesla President of sales and service leaves, Elon Musk takes over his responsibilities

During a conference call following the released of the company’s financial results today, Tesla confirmed that its President of Sales and Services, Jon McNeill, is leaving the company. Tesla CEO Elon Musk confirmed that Sales and Services will be reporting to him directly without any plan for someone to replace McNeill. As Musk was announcing McNeil’s departure, Lyft announced that they hired him as Chief Operating Officer.

McNeill was hired at Tesla in November 2016 for the newly created role of President of Global Sales & Service. He became known within the Tesla community for sometimes reaching out directly to some owners through the forums and social media to address issues.