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Why Tesla Will Fail

Discussion in 'TSLA Investor Discussions' started by neroden, Jan 29, 2018.

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  1. jeffro01

    jeffro01 Active Member

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    Twice today, once in the AM, once in the afternoon... It is what it is...

    Jeff
     
  2. Nitemare3219

    Nitemare3219 Member

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    Being quiet and fighting alone rarely leads to success if the issue is as big as you make it out to be.
     
  3. ⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️

    ⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️ Fritterer and waster of hours in an off hand wayer

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    Darn. I guess a better question is how long have they ignored your oldest email? Hopefully this matter isn't too time sensitive, but it probably is or you wouldn't be this perturbed.
     
  4. pz1975

    pz1975 Member

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    I know this probably won't help you right now, but I have found with Tesla (I am a customer since 2013) sending emails to anonymous addresses (service, sales, etc.) never gets a response. I remember sending about 5-6 emails like this with no response. Only when you email an individual person who you have dealt with/helped you before do things get done. When I had my issue, I sent an email to a guy who had helped me and even though it had nothing to do with the area he worked in, suddenly he was coordinating help and all the people he linked me to were also very helpful.

    The company obviously has some huge problems with communication but I always find that when you actually do get it contact with the 'right' person (hard to find sometimes), they are very helpful and accommodating.
     
  5. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    I've read enough of your posts over the years to know you're a bit reactionary, to say the least. You were often over the top attacking anyone critical of Tesla and now that you're having an unpleasant experience you've flipped to the other extreme. No doubt Tesla screws up big time with certain individuals but so does every other large company. I'd rather Tesla never did anything wrong but that's not realistic. I hope your issue works out for you, and anyone else having issues, but it's not going to be the end of Tesla any time soon.
     
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  6. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    So there is no confusion I was responding to a post which seems to have disappeared.
     
  7. pz1975

    pz1975 Member

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    Haha thanks - I thought you were responding to my post.
     
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  8. jeffro01

    jeffro01 Active Member

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    I removed my post in light of your response. I didn't do it out of malice, anger, or any other negative emotion... I just realized it wasn't productive and I'd remove my original one in this thread going back a page if I could.

    Jeff
     
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  9. electracity

    electracity Active Member

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    A dealership model may have mitigated/prevented many of the complaints that have shown up since the model 3 started shipping in volume. If Musk was going to be so bad at organizing this stuff then fixed priced franchised retail stores may have been the way to go.
     
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  10. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Sure because everyone has great dealer experiences...
     
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  11. Zhelko Dimic

    Zhelko Dimic Careful bull

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    #311 Zhelko Dimic, Dec 13, 2018 at 5:35 PM
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018 at 5:41 PM
    Fantastic article:
    Dr. Elon & Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

    I did not like it.
    But I believe it. This is not FUD. This is unpleasant information, but information nonetheless, and I believe as truthful, as one can get when hearing second hand stories.
    Great investigative journalism of stuff that was happening this year. Beginning is generic, sensationalistic and somewhat inflammatory. Good bits, real investigative bits of the story start maybe 25% in.
    If you can't take criticism of Musk/Tesla, and Musk can't do wrong, please don't read it. Here is your litmus test, if following paragraph annoys you, it's not for you. And BTW, I'm not brave enough to post this on the main forum anymore.

    “For me, the fact that we were able to build at scale, amid all that craziness, that’s the real accomplishment,” one former engineering executive told me. “Just think about it: We designed a car that is so simple and elegant you can build it in a tent. You can build it when your CEO is melting down. You can build it when everyone is quitting or getting fired. That’s a real accomplishment. That’s amazing.”
     
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  12. Yuri_G

    Yuri_G Member

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    Should be easily repeatable by other companies then, right?

    I don't buy it. Musk is notorious for being difficult to work for sometimes, but if he was a detriment to the company it would have failed at multiple make or break times.
     
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  13. jeffro01

    jeffro01 Active Member

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    That was one hell of an article... Thank you for posting it...

    Jeff
     
  14. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    It was already posted there. No one flipped out. I don't think anyone should be surprised that Elon can be mercurial, especially when under extreme pressure, and we know sometimes his imagination gets ahead of his common sense. Sometimes that works out, sometimes not.
     
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  15. sundaymorning

    sundaymorning Active Member

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    #315 sundaymorning, Dec 13, 2018 at 10:02 PM
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018 at 10:34 PM

    Hey Z, thanks for the article. But I wouldn’t worry too much about it. When working in a company where there is a do or die situation people will act erratic. The immense pressure is enough to give any average person a heart attack, so I can understand Musk’s behavior, Steve Jobs was the same way...

    The fact that Tesla has such a superior product, loyal following indicates to me we are on the right track. Every family has its issues, Tesla is by no means perfect, but we are definitely making profits and that’s the thing that matters most to keep this company moving forward and producing even better future products. I bet that if reporters dug deep into every company, every institution, etc. they would find the same type of skeleton in the closet.

    I don’t know if you’ve ever dealt with a very smart person, but it’s quite difficult. Musk is beyond smart and we have to pay the “Musk tax” if we want to be part of the mission. At any rate, I’m excited about what’s ahead, anyone can look back and write a story base on what was “said, published, rumored” and create something from nothing. What I’m not really surprised about, is that this writer gave very little credit to Musk for his accomplishment and the hiring spree Tesla has been on. If people didn’t want to work, then why does Tesla continue to attract talents and increase its force to 40,000 strong?

    My feeling is that if any given company isn’t performing up to standards, you need to bring in the tiger in order to set the tone. A leader like Musk has to unleash hell and make examples out of people in order to instill fear. You may not be able to think when a tiger is chasing you, but I guarantee you’ll be running full speed nonstop until that tiger is out of sight. It’s precisely what we needed to get to 5,000.... the point I’m trying to make here is that if you don’t want Musk in the same area code as you, or sleeping at the factory in which you work, then you know what you have to do so that the boogey man doesn’t show up at your doorstep. This is Machiavelli on governing at its best, “it’s better to be feared than loved.” Bob Lutz was a guy loved by his peers, a legend at GM, and we all know what happened to him and the Volt.

    This article has about 25% juice and 75% FUD. The juice to me, isn’t eyebrow raising. I need Musk to be the tiger when the company isn’t performing, if he was truly a jerk, he wouldn’t have paid the bills at the bar ;) that’s how I know he’s only putting on a show. You need to have some sacrificial lambs in order to bring out the potential in others?

    Anyway, this is just my perspective. Please keep sending articles that concerns you my way as I do need a differing perspective.
     
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  16. Zhelko Dimic

    Zhelko Dimic Careful bull

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    Let me clarify, I'm not concerned. I found article insightful, and not FUD. I've guessed 60-80% of this info from available nuggets of info from the past. Partially because I have similar history and weaknesses as Musk. I've immigrated with 2 bags and borrowed 2,000 to Canada, I had an a..hole father, I'm nerd, somewhat socially awkward, a bit successful (VP of Eng., 7 figures worth in my 40's). I tear up easily when giving motivation speeches, because I care so much about people working for me; and yet I've fired many, many people over the course of my career... I'm not saying I'm even remotely as smart as Musk. I'm saying that our forming experiences were similar, and that my weaknesses, this story and everything else I know about Musk resonated with things I had to struggle myself. And hence, I believe those stories.

    Having said that, main conclusion I drew from the article is that Musk is a bit more damaged than I knew. It makes sense, he's trying to fix the world and didn't spend 10's of thousands of hours of working on himself. And that's the right choice for him and us as his investors. I'm not concerned of it, now that he's over the hump.

    However, one thought I'm struggling with is good of an individual vs. good of humanity. Does saving humanity justify crushing one young Engineer dreams? One guy getting fired for reasons he doesn't understand? He will replay that conversion for the next 10 years, and will be scarred for life with that experience: when his idol, god-like creature (Musk) wasn't happy with him. How else could he have played it? He'll shudder every time he thinks about it and feel sick to his stomach...

    I appreciate that for most people there is a clear decision that collateral damage isn't as important, as global warning, fate of humanity, being interplanetary species, or even making money...
    I'm not sure of it. I've had experience with some black swan events (war, economic destruction, hyperinflation ...) and I've come to appreciate that one person's emotional pain is what really matters. Probably very isolated perspective.

    And look, I'm still almost 100% TSLA. I could comfortably hold two opposing views of the same person: humanity's saviour, and raging asshole in personal life. After all, we all become a bit of who our fathers were...
     
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  17. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Of course. People get fired all the time for reasons they don't understand, and not in jobs having the potential to save humanity. You seem to be arguing that no one should ever have hurt feelings.
    One thing which is puzzling, if Elon is as frequently an irrational maniac as the article paints it's rather surprising that not one single piece of video evidence has ever surfaced. Is every employee strip searched each day before work, has Elon, who is supposedly so irrational and prone to constant outbursts, never done so in public?
    I have no doubt that some of what the article reports is true, I do question the entire picture it tries to paint.
     
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  18. mongo

    mongo Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I have similar history and identified with the fired engineer. But that was the point of that section of the story. Little guy with hopes and dreams getting stomped on.
    Take a step back:
    The dude was there because someone told him Musk needed his help.
    Thus it must have been something he worked on, and Musk already knew it. Maybe whatever it was was crap, maybe Musk was going to fire him to begin with due to the quality of whatever it was, but chose to give him a chance. Now the guy who made it shows up and isn't saying whether he has any part of the thing.

    Or maybe Musk was hangry, we don't know. We just know the way Wired chose to paint the scene.
     
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  19. sundaymorning

    sundaymorning Active Member

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    I see your perspective, thanks for sharing a bit about your life. From what I’ve heard through rumor is that the unspoken rule at Tesla/SpaceX is that you don’t approach Musk, he will approach you. Of course, the exception to this rule is that anyone can approach him, but you better have good reason to do it. A young engineer approaching Musk when a machine has stopped working, while he’s pissed isn’t particularly a good time (his mistake is that he didn’t provide a resolution, but instead only said “hey buddy it’s not working”). At any rate, I feel sorry for the kid, but I can empathize with Musk. We see this guy as a kind person, a much needed hero in our era, but in the end he’s only human whose under a tremendous amount of pressure and stress. To add onto that pressure, the media is constantly attacking him for the wrong reasons, that would irritate anyone. It’s tough being Elon, and that’s why I admire him, although I wouldn’t want to be him, my heart can’t handle it.
     
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  20. neroden

    neroden Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan

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    Orrrr, and this is going to sound conspiracy-oriented, but it's a real possibility, the guy who made the robot & software which didn't work WAS the guy who told the young engineer "Musk needs your help", and was arranging to get a scapegoat fired in place of himself. If so, he succeeded.

    That sort of *sugar* happens. Tesla's processes are so chaotic that I doubt they can prevent it. Andy Grove's "only the paranoid survive" has not yet been applied at Tesla.

    I actually identify with *Musk* in this story -- I've had that kind of rage at blatant incompetence where I could have done the whole thing myself. But I've taught myself to be *very careful about my targeting*, because of *sugar* like I just described, which I *have* run into. I don't want to make that targeting mistake again.

    The correct move for Musk was to say with unearthly calm, "I was told you designed this. Is that correct?" To which the engineer can say "No", or "only part of it". Then, after clarifying responsibility and determining who actually made the part that didn't work, a summary firing might be correct.
     
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