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Will current X and S become Supercharger obsolete?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by azred, Apr 24, 2017.

  1. azred

    azred Member

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    #1 azred, Apr 24, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
    I realize there have been tons of posts about next and future generation Supercharging, but it seems there is no definitive answer to the question posed in this thread. The Tesla blog today has furthered the discussion.

    Obviously everyone has a belief, hope and wild guess, but what I am hoping to read in this thread are educated answers based on either past remarks from Tesla/Elon or thoughts from those with technical expertise (like wk057)?
     
  2. DocZ

    DocZ Member

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    I'm very concerned about this as well. My best guess is we'll know more toward the end of the year.
     
  3. AudubonB

    AudubonB Mild-mannered Moderator Lord Vetinari*

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    Good gracious, fear mongers.

    First, there exists a contract between Tesla Inc. and Model S & X owners: Free Supercharging for Life of Vehicle (pre Jan 2017; 400kWh free per year thereafter).

    Second: read the blogpost!!!!!! As in:
    "It is extremely important to us and our mission that charging is convenient, abundant, and reliable for all owners, current and future."

    Emboldened mine.
     
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  4. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    If you're asking if future cars will be able to charge faster than current cars at some point in the future, I think the answer will be yes.

    If you're asking whether Tesla will change the connector in such a fashion that current cars will no longer be able to plug in to future Superchargers, I really doubt it will happen - and if they do, I'd bet heavily on some sort of legacy adapter being provided.
     
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  5. Petra

    Petra Member

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    Even if Tesla were to move to an 800V pack/DC charging setup, it would be possible to make the charger cabinet output variable to support the older 400V cars so long as the physical plug doesn't meaningfully change. Calm down and just wait for information from Tesla, rather than Model 3-ing yourselves up with speculation, dumping gasoline all over your S/X, and burning it down in an abandoned parking lot for the insurance money because you're worried about future charging standards. ;)
     
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  6. azred

    azred Member

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    Calm down? The question I calmly asked is not new, but as far as I know there has been nothing but wild speculation. Maybe that is all that is possible at this point. But perhaps a more definitive answer exists. Hopefully those of you who are asking for calm will not clutter up this thread telling me what I should care about.
     
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  7. Petra

    Petra Member

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    As I said, backward compatibility for 400V cars is possible. Hypothetically, Tesla could move to faster charging while still maintaining plug compatibility. What actually happens on this front is up to Tesla and, unfortunately, my crystal ball seems to be malfunctioning. There isn't a definitive answer this early in the game and even things like the whole industry (Tesla included) eventually adopting a single standard (like CCS) is possible. Would that be inconvenient for current owners? Sure. Are adapters possible? You bet. Could Tesla completely disappear from the automotive landscape within 10 years, leaving current owners with much bigger problems than a lack of Supercharging? Yup, though it's looking increasingly less likely.
     
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  8. Eclectic

    Eclectic Member

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    I think many other things of the current versions of the Models S/X will become obsolete, or so far behind the times as to make most people want to get a new car, before supercharging does.
     
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  9. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #9 stopcrazypp, Apr 24, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
    Let me give a technical take. If Tesla was going to move to a new standard, it would likely be harmonized with CCS 2.0 (given Tesla joined the CharIn group with a core membership).

    CCS 2.0 is 350kW (1000V[email protected]).
    Combined Charging System (CCS) 2.0

    Tesla's connector can already handle 370A in the real world. So what will largely change is the insulation needed for 1000V.

    The supercharger cabinets will also need to be upgraded to handle 1000V. However, the good thing is that a 1000V charger would be backwards compatible with existing 400V packs. The problem is actually the other way around: a new car with a 1000V pack will not be able to charge at an older 400V charger (unless using pack reconfiguration to switch pack to 400V for charging or an onboard DC-DC converter).

    As for the connector, in Europe, if Tesla switches to the CCS socket, the only difference is two pins (since Tesla already uses the Type 2 connector for superchargers). The socket would be compatible with both existing superchargers and CCS.

    The issue is the SAE J1772 CCS connector. I had a thread here that analyzes this:
    SAE J1772 DC (Combo) Connector Adapter for Model S
    Given the two standards are pin compatible, it is possible to make a dumb physical adapter (similar to current J1772 adapter) that would adapt between CCS and the USA supercharger connector.

    What Tesla may do is switch to the CCS socket and then the superchargers may either have both connectors or there would be an adapter made. I imagine eventually Tesla will have to make a CCS adapter anyways (given it will likely outnumber CHAdeMO with the VW investment).
     
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  10. animorph

    animorph Member

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  11. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    That patent has a coolant loop connector, so would not be compatible with existing cars, unless the connector was retrofitted to the older cars. It's not using a cooling pad.
     
  12. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Active Member

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    Regarding the title: No.
    No, it isn't. That would be far beyond shooting themselves in the foot. They would never consider such a thing.
     
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  13. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Of course in the future there will be faster Supercharger. It will be backward compatible with older cars.

    If you defined what you meant by "obsolete" that would be helpful. Here are two definitions.

    "no longer produced or used; out of date." Yes, at some point today's Supercharging technology will be outdated. No surprise there.

    "cause (a product or idea) to be or become obsolete by replacing it with something new." Yes, something new will come along. No surprise there.

    But that doesn't mean that today's Teslas will not be able to Supercharger in the future. Of course they will. New Supercharging technology will be backward compatible. If the connector type changes, an adaptor will be available.
     
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  14. tga

    tga Supporting Member

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    I don't understand how a blog post that basically says "Hey, we're gonna build a shitload of new superchargers this year" could cause consternation...
     
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  15. AudubonB

    AudubonB Mild-mannered Moderator Lord Vetinari*

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  16. jsmay311

    jsmay311 Member

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    #16 jsmay311, Apr 24, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
    In regards to the highlighted portion at the end of the quote above, I've wondered if the best solution might actually be sort of the opposite of that: a battery pack that is normally ~400V but can reconfigure itself to double its voltage by putting 2 of its (normally parallel) halves in series when DC-charging on a next-gen 1000V DC charger.

    Such a vehicle would be able to utilize all existing EV drivetrain and other misc components (inverters, motors, heaters, etc.) that are designed for ~400V packs and would be compatible with all existing 500V DC chargers, but could also use next-gen 1000V DC chargers.

    I'm not smart enough to say whether or not this is practically achievable or which approach would be best, but I would guess that it's doable.
     
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  17. jelloslug

    jelloslug Active Member

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    The patent has a number of different cooling configurations, the coolant loop connector is just one of them.
     
  18. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Yes, we discussed that in the CCS 2.0 link. There are advantages to either way. Porsche seems to be going with an 800V architecture. This allows higher performance without as much heat from current. Tesla may go the same way, but they may go the way you suggested to keep the 400V components and save on costs.
     
  19. Electricfan

    Electricfan Active Member

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    Maybe I don't understand the question. Are you suggesting it is possible that someday, in the expected life of our current cars, we will find ourselves unable to charge at any supercharger station in the country, and have home charging as the only option?
     
  20. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    You are right, I just looked at the picture in the article, but didn't scroll down. There is a cooling pad design, and there is also one where they just blast conditioned air to the front. However, all of the designs seem to utilize an under car arm, where even when the coolant connector is eliminated doesn't look like it would be compatible with the current pack design (the high voltage connectors in the current packs are in the back of the pack facing upwards).

    You could however use the external cooling ideas, but it won't be what the patent covers.
     

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