Will it fit: Powerwall+

[holeydonut]

... haven't heard of any pushback when the Gas line runs along the interior of a garage wall with ESS next to it.

You haven't heard about pushback "yet" haha. Always a first time.

IIRC when the Sunrun ESS guy was at my house, he mentioned that he was glad my water heater was on the other side of the garage as my ESS. He said surface-mounted NG lines have caused some issues with his installs. But then the conversation switched to bollards and rate of rise heat sensors... which became separate issues to resolve before they installed everything.

 

[Vines]

Got an interesting update from the surveyor. He stated that the gas pipes can't be in the same room/garage as PW unless it's hidden.

Any thoughts on this situation?

PS: Found NEC 706.34(C) that may apply to this situation but I'm not entirely too sure. You can park your EV in the garage with gas water heater or similar items but can't have PW lol

Also, the section quoted in 706.34 is under part III of article 706.

The code says:
Part III of this article applies to ESSs that are comprised of
sealed and non-sealed cells or batteries or system modules that
are comprised of multiple sealed cells or batteries that are not
components within a listed product.

In other words, a self contained ESS is not required to adhere to the sections under part III

 

[komrade]

Thanks for the feedback! I spoke with the Project Advisor and he stated that there was a miscommunication and the requirement is that the gas pipes can't be within 4 feet of PW. However the designer is still looking at the redesign request to confirm the change!

So frustrating to get a straight answer from Tesla!

 

[Vines]

Thanks for the feedback! I spoke with the Project Advisor and he stated that there was a miscommunication and the requirement is that the gas pipes can't be within 4 feet of PW. However the designer is still looking at the redesign request to confirm the change!

So frustrating to get a straight answer from Tesla!

Good luck!

 

[komrade]

Update: it looks like Tesla agreed to make the design change (currently being worked on). However I will have to remove about 4-5 feet of existing gas pipes that's near the PW location. See the image below, the pipes are highlighted in red.

Any tips on how to remove such old pipes? I have basic understanding of turning off the main gas, letting it all out (turn on the stove to let it burn, etc.). But I will appreciate any advice from the experts on here! Thanks.

 

[patrick40363]

Update: it looks like Tesla agreed to make the design change (currently being worked on). However I will have to remove about 4-5 feet of existing gas pipes that's near the PW location. See the image below, the pipes are highlighted in red.

Any tips on how to remove such old pipes? I have basic understanding of turning off the main gas, letting it all out (turn on the stove to let it burn, etc.). But I will appreciate any advice from the experts on here! Thanks.

View attachment 788500

Call a plumber to move it.

 

[BGbreeder]

Call a plumber to move it.

X2 on calling a plumber.

That looks simple but isn't due to the location of the main tee and two 45s. I would get clarity on how many inches back you have to go. If you can put a close nipple and a cap on the lowest 45, it won't be too bad, but old pipe close to a wall is a recipe for things going sideways quickly in my book. If you torque threads on the vertical pipe and get a leak, the simplest fix may involve cutting the vertical pipe and installing a union and new sections pipe. Just sayin'...

Congratulations on getting the location that you want.

All the best,

BG

 

[wwhitney]

Not the best place to start your first experience with threaded joints--you need to have two pipe wrenches to make/unmake them, and you need to know how tight to make them.

But if you have some experience with making the joints, I'd start by cutting the pipe just upstream (to the left) of the lower 45 fitting. Then remove the cut (diagonal) nipple from the upper 45, holding back on the 45 so it doesn't move. Clean the female threads on the upper 45. Get a square plug (black or galvanized) and some Rectorseal #5, and install the plug into the 45. Restore pressure and test with gas test solution. Test again the next day for novice's peace of mind.

This gives you the option if something goes wrong to remove the 45 itself (if you can spin it without hitting the wall) and instead put on a cap. Or remove the horizontal nipple upstream of the 45 and install a plug into the tee. But properly holding back with the second wrench is a big key to not having something go wrong.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[tomuo]

I'm concerned there would be not enough clearance on the left hand side to see and wield a screwdriver to land the wiring into the powerwall.
Does the PW have a choice of where the wiring comes in?

Call a plumber to move it.

Agreed, that's less than an hours work for someone experienced. Totally worth it.

 

[jhn_]

Yeah, the fittings to run the cabling and conduit on my Powerwall are coming out the sides. I think you can run the cabling into the back side of the Powerwall, but that would mean the installer has to run stuff in the wall which adds a bunch of cost.

I told our Tesla install crew I was fine with external conduit to our Powerwalls but they still ran the wiring through the walls behind them in the garage. Some guys/crews just like doing it their way.

 

[komrade]

Thanks for the feedback! I will have a plumber remove it. Not looking to mess things up and be without gas to heat water, etc.

I appreciate all the information provided so far by the awesome TMC community, you guys are great! I will update this thread once the PW is installed (hopefully soon!).

 

[komrade]

Update: I'm beyond frustrated with Tesla Energy at this point and not sure if I should even proceed with the install at all. There's tons of miscommunication already from 'design change completed' to 'we can't do it until..'

Please see the latest response from Tesla and advise what can be done. Tesla has no issues installing PW in locations that have gas powered water heater, dryer, etc. BUT you can't have gas pipes in the same location. How does that even make any sense! WTF!!!

We have received clarification on the Powerwall and its classification. The current 2019 CEC does enforce the provisions of part 3 on our Powerwall units. Given that our Powerwall is a Energy Storage System, Pre-Engineered of Matched Components.



The language of the code provides 3 scenarios or qualifiers that are governed by part 3.



Part III of this article applies to ESSs that are:

1. comprised of sealed and non-sealed cells

or

2. batteries or system modules that are comprised of multiple sealed cells

or

3. batteries that are not components within a listed product.



There is no written exception to part 3 for self-contained units as expressed below, and in fact we are not a self-contained unit. Rather, we fall under the category of pre-engineered of matched components as defined below.

_____________________________________

Energy Storage System, Self-Contained

Energy storage systems where the components such as cells, batteries, or modules and any necessary controls, ventilation, illumination, fire suppression, or alarm systems are assembled, installed, and packaged into a singular energy storage container or unit.

- Informational Note: Self-contained systems will generally be manufactured by a single entity, tested and listed to safety standards relevant to the system, and readily connected on site to the electrical system and in the case of multiple systems to each other.



Energy Storage System, Pre-Engineered of Matched Components

Energy storage systems that are not self-contained systems but instead are pre-engineered and field-assembled using separate components supplied as a system by a singular entity that are matched and intended to be assembled as an energy storage system at the system installation site.

- Informational Note: Pre-engineered systems of matched components for field assembly as a system will generally be designed by a single entity and comprised of components that are tested and listed separately or as an assembly.

_____________________________________



In summary, the Powerwall cannot be placed in a room if there are gas pipes. Upon further review, gas pipes need to be completely cleared or hidden for Tesla to install inside; not just cut short and capped.

 

[Vines]

Update: I'm beyond frustrated with Tesla Energy at this point and not sure if I should even proceed with the install at all. There's tons of miscommunication already from 'design change completed' to 'we can't do it until..'

Please see the latest response from Tesla and advise what can be done. Tesla has no issues installing PW in locations that have gas powered water heater, dryer, etc. BUT you can't have gas pipes in the same location. How does that even make any sense! WTF!!!

We have received clarification on the Powerwall and its classification. The current 2019 CEC does enforce the provisions of part 3 on our Powerwall units. Given that our Powerwall is a Energy Storage System, Pre-Engineered of Matched Components.



The language of the code provides 3 scenarios or qualifiers that are governed by part 3.



Part III of this article applies to ESSs that are:

1. comprised of sealed and non-sealed cells

or

2. batteries or system modules that are comprised of multiple sealed cells

or

3. batteries that are not components within a listed product.



There is no written exception to part 3 for self-contained units as expressed below, and in fact we are not a self-contained unit. Rather, we fall under the category of pre-engineered of matched components as defined below.

_____________________________________

Energy Storage System, Self-Contained

Energy storage systems where the components such as cells, batteries, or modules and any necessary controls, ventilation, illumination, fire suppression, or alarm systems are assembled, installed, and packaged into a singular energy storage container or unit.

- Informational Note: Self-contained systems will generally be manufactured by a single entity, tested and listed to safety standards relevant to the system, and readily connected on site to the electrical system and in the case of multiple systems to each other.



Energy Storage System, Pre-Engineered of Matched Components

Energy storage systems that are not self-contained systems but instead are pre-engineered and field-assembled using separate components supplied as a system by a singular entity that are matched and intended to be assembled as an energy storage system at the system installation site.

- Informational Note: Pre-engineered systems of matched components for field assembly as a system will generally be designed by a single entity and comprised of components that are tested and listed separately or as an assembly.

_____________________________________



In summary, the Powerwall cannot be placed in a room if there are gas pipes. Upon further review, gas pipes need to be completely cleared or hidden for Tesla to install inside; not just cut short and capped.

Sorry I don't have further advice for you. This is not something we have faced after installing a few thousand units.

It could be the local AHJ is picky or the Tesla design team has been bitten by this, they have given you their response.

 

[komrade]

Sorry I don't have further advice for you. This is not something we have faced after installing a few thousand units.

It could be the local AHJ is picky or the Tesla design team has been bitten by this, they have given you their response.

How bad is the PW performance if it's placed outdoors? (in shade pretty much all day, hidden from direct sun). I'm in NorCal.

 

[Vines]

How bad is the PW performance if it's placed outdoors? (in shade pretty much all day, hidden from direct sun). I'm in NorCal.

I placed mine outside, its not terrible so far.

 

[wwhitney]

Please see the latest response from Tesla and advise what can be done.

Tesla (or the AHJ that gave them pushback) is reading this wrong. I gather that the reference is to NEC (same as CEC) 706 Part III and to 706.34(C) which states "Gas piping shall not be permitted in dedicated battery rooms."

https://up.codes/viewer/california/ca-electric-code-2019/chapter/7/special-conditions#divider_90_III

First, the garage is not a dedicated battery room, it is used for lots of other functions, such as parking cars. If the intention were to prohibit gas piping in any room with batteries, the wording would have been "Gas piping shall not be permitted in rooms with batteries."

Second, Part III of CEC 706 does not apply to PWs. The preamble to the section reads "Part III of this article applies to ESSs that are comprised of sealed and non-sealed cells or batteries or system modules that are comprised of multiple sealed cells or batteries that are not components within a listed product." The parsing of that sentence is wrong in the response you posted. Namely it should be parsed as:

Part III of this article applies to ESSs that are comprised of (sealed and non-sealed cells or batteries or (system modules that are comprised of multiple sealed cells or batteries)) that are not components within a listed product.

If you read the rest of Part III, it clearly applies to field assembled ESS from individual components. None of the provisions make any sense for PWs, which is why individual components within a listed product are exempted from Part III.

Lastly, if the pictures show all the gas piping in the garage, then the path of least resistance may be to cut it back as planned, and then install a small finished box out over the remaining stub. Not that hard. [Edit: I misremembered the picture, there's more piping than the horizontal run, so it might be trouble to cover it all.] But there's also no requirement in the CEC to make any changes to that gas piping.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[komrade]

Tesla (or the AHJ that gave them pushback) is reading this wrong. I gather that the reference is to NEC (same as CEC) 706 Part III and to 706.34(C) which states "Gas piping shall not be permitted in dedicated battery rooms."

First, the garage is not a dedicated battery room, it is used for lots of other functions, such as parking cars. If the intention were to prohibit gas piping in any room with batteries, the wording would have been "Gas piping shall not be permitted in rooms with batteries."

Second, Part III of CEC 706 does not apply to PWs. The preamble to the section reads "Part III of this article applies to ESSs that are comprised of sealed and non-sealed cells or batteries or system modules that are comprised of multiple sealed cells or batteries that are not components within a listed product." The parsing of that sentence is wrong in the response you posted. Namely it should be parsed as:

Part III of this article applies to ESSs that are comprised of (sealed and non-sealed cells or batteries or (system modules that are comprised of multiple sealed cells or batteries)) that are not components within a listed product.

If you read the rest of Part III, it clearly applies to field assembled ESS from individual components. None of the provisions make any sense for PWs, which is why individual components within a listed product are exempted from Part III.

Lastly, if the pictures show all the gas piping in the garage, then the path of least resistance may be to cut it back as planned, and then install a small finished box out over the remaining stub. Not that hard. But there's also no requirement in the CEC to make any changes to that gas piping.

Cheers, Wayne

Thanks for the detailed information. I appreciate it! I will try one more time and refer to the ^ information. If their stance remains the same, well then I guess I'm out of luck!

 

[wwhitney]

Thanks for the detailed information. I appreciate it! I will try one more time and refer to the ^ information. If their stance remains the same, well then I guess I'm out of luck!

If removing the gas piping back to the left side of the door (as seen from the garage) and covering the rest isn't that easy, you could also consider framing a closet around interior equipment. Then you would actually have a dedicated battery room, but you could remove the gas piping just from the closet. The work space with the closet door open would need to be 30" wide x 36" deep x 80" high, most likely. So the closet could just be a single wall in plane with the front of that cabinet next to it, if the door(s) can be big enough. Plus a little infill above the cabinet.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[BGbreeder]

Thanks for the detailed information. I appreciate it! I will try one more time and refer to the ^ information. If their stance remains the same, well then I guess I'm out of luck!

There is also covering the gas pipes with a 1x6" as @wwhitney pointed out above, at which point the pipes are "in wall"...

All the best,

BG

 

[komrade]

Latest Update: Thanks everyone for your feedback! Unfortunately, my Project Advisor has confirmed that the permitting team has made their decision and the gas pipes will need to be removed if I want to install the PW in the garage.

That being said, I got them to relocate the PW to my secondary location (outdoors). Not happy about it BUT I think with PW being outside I've more space if I need to add more batteries in the future.

Now here's the good part (imo), due to supplies shortage, Tesla changed my panels from T425 to T400. Therefore, my total kW was changed from 8.5kW to 8.8 kW -- with no changes to the price!

So my question to you all, based on my research on both panels, it seems like T400 is the newest panel with better overall performance. Is this true? What's the newest panels from Tesla? T400 or T425? Thanks!