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Will Model 3 Supercharge faster than Model S (in miles/minute)?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by ratsbew, Apr 1, 2017.

  1. ratsbew

    ratsbew Member

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    With a smaller battery, I'm assuming the KW will be lower than the Model S, but do we think that we will get more miles/minute charging rate? Miles/minute is what's really important more so than KW. Assuming lower WH/mile then it stands to reason that Model 3 will charge range faster.
     
  2. zenmaster

    zenmaster Member

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    The Model 3 will provide more range per Wh, perhaps 10-15% more? So it comes down to the relative charging rates. If Model 3 charges like 10-15% slower than the Model S it will have a comparable range increase per charging minute.
     
  3. Haxster

    Haxster Member

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    Although this is likely to some degree, the M3 may not be all that much lighter or more aerodynamic than the MS. The M3 will use a lot more steel to save cost over the lighter weight aluminum that is used extensively in the MS.
     
  4. Laban

    Laban Member

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    Björn Nyland tested the Hyundai Ionic with a 100 kW CCS charger:



    Averages around 65 kW from 0-80%. That's probably faster then the Model X 60-75 kWh pack if you count miles/time unit, perhaps even the Model S. And with a tiny 28 kWh pack. So it's certainly possible from a technical point of view.
     
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  5. LectrikPower

    LectrikPower Member

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    At the same voltage and amps the three will charge at a faster miles per hour.
     
  6. JHWJR

    JHWJR Member

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    Seems to me...

    With the same battery size, the Model 3 will accrue more miles per minute of charge than the Model S or X because it is very likely that the Model 3 will go somewhat further on the same amount of energy by being a little lighter. That assumes, though, that the Model 3 will offer the same battery size as the S. I don't think we know that yet.

    If the S or X has a larger battery, the charging will probably still favor the Model 3 for weight reasons for a while, but, as the smaller Model 3 battery approaches "full," it charges more slowly, while the larger battery of the Model S or X will still be at a lower overall charge and not resist charging as much and as soon. At some point, larger battery of the S or X will surpass the power taken on by the smaller Model 3 battery, and overcome the weight advantage of the 3. This conclusion seems safe to me as Musk has already announced that the range of the Model 3 will be lower than the Model S.
     
  7. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

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    Information we have is that the Model 3 will be a lot more aerodynamic than the S. Cd gains us 14% alone, and frontal area is also smaller (how much we don't know).

    Sure, but that isn't the question, since the smaller battery won't be able to charge at the same voltage and amperage.

    Thank you kindly.
     
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  8. LectrikPower

    LectrikPower Member

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    The real question is can the smaller battery charge at the max V and A that the supercharger can provide? If yes, then my statement is true. If it is limited than that will reduce the advantage it would have in charge mph.
     
  9. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

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    Since the wattage of the Superchargers tapers as the battery is filled, it follows that the limit is the battery, not the Supercharger (at max, splitting is another issue).

    Thank you kindly.
     
  10. LectrikPower

    LectrikPower Member

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    Let's talk about two cars, an S and 3, starting a charge at 10%. That is the scenario that my claim about max allowable V and A would apply. Since we are trying to answer the "will the 3 charge faster question" I think that is a good way to go about it. If they both charge at the same V and A then yes the three will charge at a faster mph. Since there are many variables that affect charging it makes sense to look at the problem in a specific scenario.

    So the answer is yes in some cases no in others. In the sharing case it would favor the 3 in terms of speed if the shared V and A is below the max allowable for the 3.
     
  11. LectrikPower

    LectrikPower Member

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    What would th max charge rate be for a 55 or 60 kWh battery? Isn't the max 1.3C for the S with current cells?
     
  12. omgwtfbyobbq

    omgwtfbyobbq Member

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    I think so. My guess is that the decrease in energy consumption from a more aerodynamic 3 will be greater than the decrease in charging current the smaller battery pack entails.
     
  13. LectrikPower

    LectrikPower Member

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    May entail:)
     
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  14. Gen3Joe

    Gen3Joe Member

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    Sounds like we are assuming that the new battery chemistry in the 2170s will not allow for a faster charging rate. I would be surprised if no improvements were made to charging rate after 5 years of battery R&D since the S was introduced.
     
  15. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

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    Which they won't. Tesla makes smaller pack have lower voltage. And voltage varies as charging occurs. So why bother.

    Thank you kindly.
     
  16. omgwtfbyobbq

    omgwtfbyobbq Member

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    True! I think it's very likely the 3 will have a significantly smaller pack than the S, but I'd love to be wrong. A 70kWh/65kWh usable battery pack in a car with a drag coefficient of ~.21+ would be enough to do 400+ miles @ 60mph. Safely drafting (~150-200') at 55-60mph would push that to 500+ miles. :D
     
  17. LectrikPower

    LectrikPower Member

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    Well great, now it's even more complicated:(. Lol.
     
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  18. LectrikPower

    LectrikPower Member

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    They are still selling the S75 so it might not he THAT much smaller. I just want 250 base so I can skip a battery upgrade and getting something else/get a lower price.
     
  19. JoseBQ

    JoseBQ Member

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    Is it not expected with new chemistry, new 2170 shape, and improvements in battery cooling to charge at, let's say 2-3C?

    Elon was talking about charging at 350 kW as a children game...

    When is it expected this break through if it is not with the new battery and pack technology that is supposed to stay for some years from now?
     
  20. zenmaster

    zenmaster Member

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    350 kWh in 60 minutes? That's roughly 6 kWh/min. It's going to be awhile before we reach convenience parity with gasoline fillups. For an ICE, pumping that much useful gas/petrol energy can be done over 10x faster.
     

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