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Will Model 3 Supercharge faster than Model S (in miles/minute)?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by ratsbew, Apr 1, 2017.

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  1. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

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    6 kWh per min = 60 kWh in equivalent time to a gas fillup = 240 miles = 10 gallons at 24 MPG. So maybe gas is 2x faster (excluding the fact that with gas you can't fill up at home in 30 seconds).

    So EVs are 10 times faster most of the time, and 1/2 as fast on long road trips.

    Count me in.

    Thank you kindly.
     
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  2. JoseBQ

    JoseBQ Member

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    It's not me who says that, it's EM.

    Even JB Straubel stated that the goal is to reduce recharging time to about 5-10 minutes (don't remember exact number).

    I would be happy with a battery being able to swallow 3C during 90% of the charging process... i.e. 180 kw for a 60 kwh battery... remember the example of hyundai ionic charging above 2C for the most part of charging.
     
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  3. zenmaster

    zenmaster Member

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    I hope they aim better than that. Can fill up 20gallons in 2 minutes.
     
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  4. JoseBQ

    JoseBQ Member

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  5. N5329K

    N5329K Active Member

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    #25 N5329K, Apr 1, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
    There's just nothing that refreshes as fast as a few million years worth of stored solar energy sloshing in your tank. Yet.
    Robin
     
  6. zenmaster

    zenmaster Member

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    Refreshes? I look at it as travel delay.
     
  7. aronth5

    aronth5 Long Time Follower

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    2 minutes is not needed. A 5-10 minute charge is a significant improvement and would certainly help to drive sales. Remember the vast majority of charging is done at home.

    Actually no. Strabel doesn't specifically say 5 minute charging. One could just as easily take his statement to say 10 minute charging.
    Not to quibble but he said “It’s not going to happen in a year from now. It’s going to be hard. But I think we can get down to five to 10 minutes,” Straubel said in an interview with MIT Technology Review.
     
  8. JoseBQ

    JoseBQ Member

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    10 minutes would be impressive... 6C

    Do you expect next battery packages to exceed 3C?
     
  9. N5329K

    N5329K Active Member

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    Zen:
    Delay is right. We've been delayed since this car was a national best seller. Just took a while for battery chemistry to catch up. We're almost there, and the delay is almost over.
    Robin
    detroit-electric-coupe.jpg
     

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  10. CT200h

    CT200h Member

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    Internal resistance of the new 2170 cells is a major factor of charge rate and the corresponding miles per hour charge.
    High performance cells with low internal cell resistance and a well designed pack with good contacts between cells and good cooling will result in a faster charge rate then many or all model S and X .
    That combined with a higher mile per kWh of the 3 . More miles in fewer charge minutes.
     
  11. zenmaster

    zenmaster Member

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    Not following your logic.

    240 miles for 10 gallons of gas in 1 minute
    240 miles for 60kWh in 10 minutes

    That's about 10x faster. Where are you getting 2x faster?
     
  12. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

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    You can't fill 10 gallons in 1 minute. A gas station break takes about 10 minutes. More, if you need to pay inside, wait for others, back and fill to get on the right side...

    Measure from when you leave the road, to when you return to it. Show us a video of that mythical 1 minute fill.

    Thank you kindly.
     
  13. zenmaster

    zenmaster Member

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    You'd count the time you're actually waiting on the pump, just as you'd count charge time. Of course you don't measure from when you leave the road because this is a comparison of gas vs EV where you'd (obviously) subtract those durations the procedure would have in common. We are also assuming just as many charge stations as gas stations, otherwise you'd have additional time out of way to charge. https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-flow-rate-of-gasoline-station-fuel-dispensers-in-liters-per-second
     
  14. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

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    Show that video, and I will gladly subtract common items...

    Thank you kindly.
     
  15. VT_EE

    VT_EE Member

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    The max output of the Model 3's 2170 cell is reported to be just under 6 amps compared to around 3 amps for the current cells in the Model S.

    Tesla 2170 Battery Cells: Greater Power At Comparable Cost

    Assuming the charge rate is similar and Tesla has worked on the battery cooling system, the Model 3 should Supercharge much faster than the current cars. I don't expect Musk to advertise or enable the new charge speeds until they move all their models to the 2170 (around the end of this year). Who would buy a Model S now knowing the 3 could charge twice as fast?
     
  16. transpondster

    transpondster Member

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    #36 transpondster, Apr 22, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
    Those evannex pseudo articles are on my skip to read list. They take known facts that new cells will be 21 70 and put some nonsense around it, that you can't find any confirmation on the net and makes you think that there is some new real information in it.


    from which ass they pulled those numbers?

    and again pulling twice power from 50% bigger cell is ~33% C increase, not twice overall power which you can assume without thinking
     
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  17. R.S

    R.S Active Member

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    The numbers seem to be right, but not their units. They meant mAh not mA. And they were talking about energy, not power.

    3A per cell would mean a maximum power output of a bit more than 100 kW on the P100D.
     
  18. VT_EE

    VT_EE Member

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    True, "twice" was a poor choice of words. It's probably safe to assume though that the new cell allows for a good increase in charging rate. The I can't imagine Musk approving a new design that didn't improve the charging speed.
     
  19. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

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    I can. There are a lot of important characteristics of batteries for cars, and charging speed is only one of them. A battery with twice the energy density but 20% less charging speed would be a huge win.

    Thank you kindly.
     
  20. LargeHamCollider

    LargeHamCollider Battery cells != scalable

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    M3's big pack will charge faster than MS' small pack (in miles/min)
    MS' big pack will charge faster than M3's big pack (in miles/min)
    MS' small pack will charge faster than M3's small pack (in miles/min)

    Bank on it.
     

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