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Will not save any money on "fuel" with PG&E

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by ZeApelido, Sep 5, 2017.

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  1. ZeApelido

    ZeApelido Member

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    I tried running some examples using PG&E's calculator to estimate cost of charging my future model 3 at night at home (condo). If I purely charged at the low rate time (11pm to 7am) then it would still cost me ~ $50 per month (vs. ~ $60 per month of my ICE). And given at 110 volt connection, I'd likely want to charge a bit out of the low rate period as well.

    Still a small savings, but not much. I am a bit disappointed by this. Am I missing something?

    PEV Calculator
     
  2. JonathanD

    JonathanD Member

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    Have you looked into a Time of Use plan or EV-specific plan offering? Most utilities have something like that.
     
  3. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    You need to do your calculations based on PG&E's EV rate plan. I live near you. I pay about $0.11/kWh at off peak times. If you charge during that time you will definitely save a lot compared to paying for gas.

    Your real problem is that you apparently are limited to charging from 110V. That means that during an 8 hour off peak period, for example, you can only get about 24 miles a of range. Unless you have a very short commute, that obviously isn't enough.

    Have you spoken to your landlord about getting at least a 20A/240V outlet installed? That is the minimum needed for a decent charge rate. 40A would be much better.
     
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  4. RichardL

    RichardL Member

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    Hard to believe it would be so similar with the lower off peak rate of around 10cents/kWh

    $60/mo @ $2.50 gal = 24 gallons @ 30mpg = 720 miles per month?

    A model 3 will get around 280 Wh/mi ( I think I saw that) 720 * .28 = 201 kWh/mo @ $0.10/kWh = ~ $20/month

    Do those numbers make sense?

    @ecarfan beat me to it
     
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  5. kev1n

    kev1n Member

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    as per your location,

    if youre in the bay area at 12 cents offpeak on EV-A, youre looking at 1/3 of your gas price. but like someone else suggested. its not ideal to charge off 110V. id get a NEMA 14-50 installed somewhere if you can.
     
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  6. David L

    David L Member

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    I've also been doing "fuel" cost comparisons in preparation of getting a Model 3. In SDG&E territory, the numbers are even worse. The off-peak EV rate is $0.21/kWh. Therefore, I'm planning to get solar. For a reasonably sized, purchased system (6kW+) and assuming a 25-year lifetime without unexpected repairs/maintenance (probably a bit optimistic) and full use of the 30% tax credit, the equivalent kWh ends up in the $0.05/kWh to $0.07/kWh range. It's definitely something to consider, especially in areas with expensive electricity.
     
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  7. voip-ninja

    voip-ninja Member

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    You should budget the cost of at least one inverter replacement into your calculations since they have an average lifespan of 10-12 years and never (AFAIK) make it 25 years.
     
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  8. EinSV

    EinSV Active Member

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    #8 EinSV, Sep 5, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
    In addition to the comments above re calculations using $0.12/kWh -- even if you are driving a Prius the savings should be significant -- you might also consider whether you can save money by shifting some high consumption uses to off peak.

    For example, I use the delay function on my dishwasher to run it off peak, try to avoid doing laundry in peak hours (not difficult) and a few other things, and my electricity bill has actually dropped since owning a Model S despite much larger total electricity use. So in effect I pay no fuel costs and in fact get a small subsidy to drive an EV.

    My use case is probably not typical as I had a significant amount of Tier 3 charges on my old plan and also do some charging at work, but the ability to shift high consumption uses to off peak is definitely worth factoring in if that's an option for you.
     
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  9. tsla007

    tsla007 Member

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    Why is this so important?
    Don't you have solar or wind or water energy?
    You live near the ocean-wind would be the way to go.
    Is your energy coming from green energy?
    Asking the more important question is more relevant than the price of it!
    Worrying about the cost of electricity tells me more about you.
    110v outlet charging tells me a ton about you.
    Please get help! I hope you don't drive more than 40 miles a day otherwise buying any EV is a complete waste to you.
     
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  10. Lukez

    Lukez Member

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    The more you drive the more it makes sense. If you currently drive a truck avg 20k miles/year it's a big difference. If you drive a small car doing 8k miles/year you're not going to save much in gas.
    Also not sure how it is in your states but over here we pay $0.0X/kwh but there is also a delivery charge. If you have these extra charges don't forget to put those in your calculation or you're fooling yourself.
     
  11. run-the-joules

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    SF Bay
    Currently with PG&E. paying about $250/mo in gasoline (big V8, luxury touring car, and a heavy foot = average 15mpg), same mileage with Model 3 should be closer to $35-50/mo at the EV-A $0.12kwh price.
     
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  12. Eclectic

    Eclectic Member

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    We have the EV A plan and while it can reduce electricity bills even with an EV, it can also have some very adverse consequences in the summer, when A/C use is high. For about half the year, our electricity bill is WAY higher than the combined electricity bill + gasoline costs with an ICE.
     
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  13. Falkirk

    Falkirk Member

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    I hope that's only for string inverters! I have 39 micro inverters and I'm counting on the 25 year warranty they come with covering any issues. I'm still very early in at 500+ days but it's great knowing it's in place when I get my 3 next year :)
     
  14. astrorob

    astrorob Member

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    that's true about the AC. i am on EV-A and have solar; during the 2 days of 100 degree temps, i spent $16 each day on electricity. on a normal august day PGE would pay me around $3 per day, so it really hurt. for a short span of high temps, i think EVA is still OK as it was cheaper than it would have been on E1. however if i lived out in the san joaquin valley and 100 degree temps were a daily occurrence during the summer, EVA might be a lose.

    the EVA rate plan has been messed with 4-5 times in the 2 years i've had solar. i think when i started the off-peak rate was 11c/kwh and now it's up to 12.25c/kwh. also, the peak and off-peak rates have increased by higher percentage amounts.
     
  15. codex57

    codex57 Member

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    Also PG&E here. Plan on charging at the Superchargers at $0.20/kwh.

    It may be $.12 during off peak hours, but it's $.454/kwh during peak. We're home during peak hours and need to use electricity. The EV rate plan doesn't help us. We're in the Valley. I swear, it's been like 100+ for basically the whole summer. When it drops to the 90s, it actually feels cool.
     
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  16. voip-ninja

    voip-ninja Member

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    Well any inverter can fail, obviously micro inverter failure only renders one panel out of service.

    Micro inverters historically have been quite expensive and didn't offer a warranty that long. I have 33 panels, so not sure what it would cost to convert from a string inverter to a micro inverter set up but I imagine it's quite a lot.
     
  17. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    #17 SageBrush, Sep 5, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
    I have a solid state inverter I hope will last as long as the panels. To add to the uncertainly though, how much will an inverter cost 12 years from now ?

    Or I can pay $160 today for a 20 year warranty.
    SolarEdge is either very confident in their long-term costs or expect to be out of business ;-)
     
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  18. Rogue one

    Rogue one Member

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    Ouch those are some high rates... I live in Wisconsin and have off peak power rates of $.07/KWh . I calculate I'll save a significant amount of money even factoring in the significant increase in driving we plan on dong.
     
  19. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    #19 SageBrush, Sep 5, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
    Those high rates only concern people in CA who cannot buy PV. And those who can, view your rate as high ;-)

    I volunteer locally with a group that puts up home PV. I'm pretty sure that final installed costs are approaching 70 cents a watt after tax credit, so under 2 cents a kWh lifetime and getting under 1.5 cents a kWh for those with excellent solar locations. If you are inclined to some creative accounting and figure the PV would be bought anyway for the home, the marginal cost to add some panels for an EV can be as low as 0.5 cents a kWh lifetime.

    I tell people that I pay 0.5 cents a mile for my EV fueling but it is less. I don't want them to doubt me or feel tooooo bad if they realize they are paying 15 cents a mile for the ICE pig.
     
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  20. kmngq

    kmngq Member

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    have you talked to your HOA about installing an outlet?
     

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