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Will post-delivery FSD option go away?
- Thread starter cartwright
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- fsd eap
IANAL but what I was getting at was that the class action lawsuit settlement essentially absolves Tesla of any further legal obligation with respect to FSD delivery or non-delivery at least for those who didn't explicitly opt out or whatever.
whitex
Well-Known Member
People who sued in Europe got ~$5K each for the hp deception, but no class action lawsuit. It also forced Tesla to reveal actual hp number - 463hp (a lot less than the advertised 691hp).
AP2 cars will never have FSD as described by Elon or Tesla (simple test, can I summon it across the country, or even within one full charge range, with no driver in the car). Elon is an optimist but also doesn't think things through at all, and not just schedule wise. How on earth are the AP2 cars going to clean their cameras for example? Simple question, but either it never occurred to Elon or he didn't care because he knew FSD was not going to happen. We all know how his brilliant "I don't need no stinking radars for blind spot monitoring, I have parking sensors" worked out for AP1 cars - it works as well as you'd expect a parking sensor would, and it doesn't work at non-parking speeds, like going 75mph on a highway. No refunds for anyone there.
I just saw an article what any engineer who would tell Elon something cannot be done, or even that it can't be done within set time or budget, gets fired. That's why nobody told him how stupid his idea of using parking sensors for BSM was. That's why nobody told him there is no way in hell he was going to deliver EAP by December 2016, so Tesla put it in their design studio for people to order. The guy accomplished a lot in his life, I fully respect that, but at some point (about 4 years ago) he got high on his own success and is currently burning out and going crazy, like the original Nicola Tesla who lied to his investors just so he can fund his death ray project.
whitex
Well-Known Member
Exactly. I think the up to $280 compensation is it - nothing more coming. Of course selling something for $3K now knowing they can't deliver it and counting on paying back $280 later would be considered fraud, hence they had to stop selling it.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Perspective is everything. I look at this issue and thread and it only reinforces my choice not to pay for FSD because it's pie in the sky and no one has seen it work except in a video that's been pretty much debunked. If I had to pay $10k tomorrow, but I could get in the back of my 3 and it will drive me home after a few beers, my wallet is open and I would be more than happy to pay. But something tells me that won't happen for the life of my 3, even if I paid for FSD -- so I looked at the FSD button when I ordered as the "join the class action" button that I didn't pay to join. I sure hope I'm proven wrong but I look at this development as supporting my view -- whereas you look it as getting in on FSD as a "bargain price". Only time will tell who is right and I'm rooting for you.
That's what I base my opinion on. Fool me once...
Interesting analogy. I don't think Elon has the mens rea for fraud. I think he means well, and has good intentions, but we know what the road to hell is paved with.
The class action was merely about EAP. Nothing about FSD.
Further, the scope of the claims was far more narrow than "any further legal obligation." It does wipe the slate clean for Tesla in the US for EAP delayed delivery but that's about it. Failure to deliver any features isn't contemplated in the last version of the settlement agreement that I read.
dbldwn02
Active Member
The recently closed settlement TECHNICALLY gives Tesla a pass on delivering any more EAP features. The reason being is they can always claim they're working on it. They will release a nibble here and there to appease the courts but it will never have 100% of the advertised features. They'll just sit back and hope people forget, trade-in and crash their cars. AP1 is living proof.
That's why they made every AP2.0 owner a class member without asking them.
True but I don't think the Judge wouldn't reopen proceedings if Tesla fails to deliver EAP features in a year without court approved reasons. Tesla did a great job defanging the settlement of concrete steps and disincentives to fail.
whitex
Well-Known Member
Do you really, trully believe Elon actually believed AP2 cars were fully FSD capable, to let you sleep in the back while it drives you to work or summon it from across the country? If he did, then he's either completely delusional or just a really bad engineer who didn't think about things like how to keep the cameras clean while driving. I don't think many will agree he's a bad engineer, so that leaves intentional deception or Nicola-Tesla-like gone off the deep end delusional. I'm leaning towards the latter.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Yes I do believe he was sincere in his belief. I have no reason to say otherwise and I have my reasons for my belief: I don't see him needing to defraud anyone. Sure he loves money like the rest of us, but he risked his Paypal fortune because he's about a lot more than money. I also think his "living on mars" (what do most engineers say about that?) is about the same in his head as FSD -- both pie in the sky (for the foreseeable future) but not to him. He's so far ahead of the rest of us when it comes to being a visionary -- he's just not held down firmly to the realities of earth -- which is a good thing -- and why I'm driving on rainwater rather than fossil fuels But at the same time, when he was living at the factory and having more things done by hand than his vision about robots building cars lead him to believe, then having problems with automation and realizing how well people can do things, then saying robots are overrated -- I though that was another example of his head further ahead of our current technology.
Again, no mens rea, at least in my view. I'm completely convinced of it but there's no way I can convince you, and you could be right, but we'll never know since neither of us can get in his head, and I do understand and have sympathy for people who feel cheated -- and I think it will only get worse as FSD takes longer and longer.
OK, so then you prefer the "gone off the deep end" option? Or to put it somewhat less colorfully, he no longer has the ability to evaluate what is possible (given the resources at hand) and what is not? He cannot distinguish between his "vision" (which you might call fantasies at this point) and reality (the real constraints of time, money, and physics). Vision is great, but you need to temper it with sober assessments of reality.
There have been some news articles lately about how a surefire way to get fired at SpaceX is to tell Elon that something is impossible. But some things are impossible (particularly given finite time and money resources), and a culture that prevents employees from acknowledging that for fear of losing their jobs is the kind of culture that yields the train wreck we've seen with AP.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Yes, in a perfect world. That's not the world we live in.
In our world, you have to take the startling beauty of Vincent van Gogh's paintings with the mental anguish involved in causing someone to cut off one's own ear. And cancer experts say Steve Jobs could still be alive had he not followed some pretty bizarre ideas about curing himself. And I could go one and on...
No, I prefer the living in the real world with geniuses among us that have issues we can't put in nice square boxes with categorical labels like you and others want to do. Not everything is black and white, at least in my view of the world we live in.
The excuses for Elon just keeps coming.
A man who says AGI, terminator, skynet, sentient robots will be here in 2 months is not some genius.
He is a egoistic, attention whoring liar.
Stop catering to his nonsense. Next he will say time travel machine will be built in 2 years and you will nod your head. Lol smh
We know that Tesla has recruited employees to test and provide feedback on FSD features in 2019. Tesla wants hundreds of employees testing full self-driving, offers free Autopilot upgrades with new purchases We also know they have been developing a new FSD chip scheduled for release in 2019. Tesla Owners With Full Self-Driving Will Get Free Hardware Upgrade
While the $5K FSD upgrade is still available, not having the option to pre-purchase FSD for $3K means customers will no longer be able to get a bargain by pre-purchasing FSD, while also locking in a free upgrade to the new chip. Not many customers took advantage of the FSD pre-purchase option, but with the inevitable leaks of FSD testing, news about the chip and added features to v9 rolling out in 2019 I suspect many more would.
Given the large volume of cars now being sold and the challenge to the service department so many chip upgrades at one time would present I understand why Tesla did away with the pre-purchase discount (while retaining the option to upgrade for $5K). Also, why charge $3K for a feature now when they can charge $5K or more six months or a year from now. But I am glad I was able to buy FSD for the bargain price of $3K and wish I had the same option on the Model 3 SR I plan to buy next year, even if the initial FSD features are not released yet. I expect FSD will be significantly more expensive ($5K+) when the initial FSD features are activated.
While the $5K FSD upgrade is still available, not having the option to pre-purchase FSD for $3K means customers will no longer be able to get a bargain by pre-purchasing FSD, while also locking in a free upgrade to the new chip. Not many customers took advantage of the FSD pre-purchase option, but with the inevitable leaks of FSD testing, news about the chip and added features to v9 rolling out in 2019 I suspect many more would.
Given the large volume of cars now being sold and the challenge to the service department so many chip upgrades at one time would present I understand why Tesla did away with the pre-purchase discount (while retaining the option to upgrade for $5K). Also, why charge $3K for a feature now when they can charge $5K or more six months or a year from now. But I am glad I was able to buy FSD for the bargain price of $3K and wish I had the same option on the Model 3 SR I plan to buy next year, even if the initial FSD features are not released yet. I expect FSD will be significantly more expensive ($5K+) when the initial FSD features are activated.
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Tam
Well-Known Member
100 employees to provide 300 to 400 hours of driving feedback by 12/31/2019.
That doesn't sound meaningful when it has hundreds of thousands of owners to do that for them.
AP2.0 was thought to be able to do it.
Then AP2.5,
Then now AP3
Why not many more?
I do believe in FSD because I pre-paid it but I don't know when will any meaningful FSD capability will be demonstrated.
The first thing that can reassure me of its coming is If it can demonstrate consistently an ability to stop crashing into obstacles at 90 MPH.
The problem with FSD isn't the sensors, computers, or any other hardware. It's the software. If Tesla could demonstrate FSD in a car equipped with $1.5M of hardware, I'd be convinced.
They can't.
They can't.
Exactly. This is actually why I never thought they had a chance. Proof of concept stage involves more computational power than needed, and then you start deciding what you need and what you can do without for cost, speed, etc. They NEVER completed proof of concept...just straight to specing hardware. AP2 hardware was never really intended to do more than replace the AP1 capability because that was actually the limit of their concept at the time. (Actual working concept...not dreamy what if’s and velvety bullsh*t)
I don’t actually hold Elon responsible for the first round of lies. He had no idea what he was saying, and probably still doesn’t.
whitex
Well-Known Member
There are two problems.
Problem number one is Tesla sold AP2 cars as FSD capable - that problem would have easily been solved with, as you suggested, $1.5M of hardware. Waymo cars are much cheaper than that and they self drive (for now in limited areas), so with $1.5M per car I am sure you could take Waymo sensor set, then add 4 time more sensors and processing power to future proof it.
The second problem is Elon made a fake FSD video to convince people how far along FSD was, yet they couldn't even turn headlights on or off using the camera as a sensor for months. Pretty much they had very little other than Elons dreams.
