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Will Tesla Charge for HW3 to use a FSD subscription?

Will Tesla charge for a HW upgrade to use FSD subscription?

  • Yes, and that's fine

    Votes: 25 44.6%
  • Yes, but they shouldn't

    Votes: 24 42.9%
  • No, but they could

    Votes: 4 7.1%
  • No, because they can't

    Votes: 3 5.4%

  • Total voters
    56

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,934
2,514
Seattle, WA
A Redditor noticed that the code is leaking out for the FSD sub, and it will point owners of non-HW3 cars to an upgrade link:
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/nwtxtg
It doesn't appear they are going to try and have different subscription prices or terms for pre HW3 cars.

By definition, this only applies to HW2 and HW2.5 cars, which were made Oct 2016 to April 2019. During that time, the Tesla website said:

All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.

So, what is your opinion of what they will do, and what they are supposed to do based upon the statement above (or others made between 2016 and 2019)? Did the term "FSD" only apply to you buying FSD outright, not subscribing, or is "FSD" FSD no matter how they sell it to you because it's the same software, and they need to upgrade HW for free when you subscribe?

As a few reminders:
  • HW2/2.5 owners can buy full FSD today for $5K (if they already have EAP) and Tesla will swap out to HW3 for "free" as part of that purchase.
  • Tesla always made it clear that FSD could be purchased later- they even warned you that it was $1000 more to buy after the car was delivered during the EAP days.
  • Tesla has been putting HW3 in cars for "free" when they are in for a MCU1 to MCU2 swap. This is not advertised as part of the swap, and you do not get FSD as part of it. It is not required to upgrade to MCU2- up until recently the MCU upgrade didn't include HW3, and MCU2 is effectively what is in the 3/Y, which was HW2.5 for a while.
 
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stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,500
5,449
That wording in the code suggests they will charge for the upgrade. Will have to dig into the threads, but I remember there were plenty of people who paid out of pocket to upgrade to HW3 and those people would be pissed off if people got it for "free" as part of the subscription.

I see at minimum, a minimum subscription term (kind of like those 1-2 year carrier contracts) even if they don't charge for the upgrade directly. That's a decent middle ground that addresses the concerns of both sides.

Otherwise there may be a rash of people that "subscribe" for a month just to get the hardware upgrade.

As for what that latter statement means legally (the discussion of what they are "supposed" to do), I think that the statement opens them up to a false advertising claim, but not a necessarily a claim of violation of purchase contract. That claim actually is already demonstratively false for earlier cars as soon as it was determined HW3 is required for FSD. The retrofits don't change this. The discussion about what happened in China (where Tesla was forced to retrofit HW3) demonstrates this. The paperwork that came with that group of cars (the government certification) said explicitly the car comes with HW3, so Tesla was legally required to install it (regardless of FSD and the website statement). Tesla was not required to retrofit earlier cars that didn't come with paperwork that stated the car had HW3.
 
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TresLA

Member
Jul 15, 2018
69
60
L.A.
Perhaps a small point, but we purchased HW2.5 in spring 2018 knowing that paying for "FSD capability" upfront would include HW3 upgrade when it became available. Not paying for it (at the time either no AP or purchasing just AP only (and not EAP) would NOT include a free hardware upgrade when it became available.
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,934
2,514
Seattle, WA
Will have to dig into the threads, but I remember there were plenty of people who paid out of pocket to upgrade to HW3
I am not aware that Tesla has ever let you pay to upgrade. You got the upgrade for free if you had paid for FSD (as part of car purchase or afterwards). Otherwise, no upgrade for you. There are a few cars that got HW3 for "free" as part of a MCU1-MCU2 upgrade.

I see at minimum, a minimum subscription term (kind of like those 1-2 year carrier contracts) even if they don't charge for the upgrade directly. That's a decent middle ground that addresses the concerns of both sides.
Elon specifically called it "monthly".
Otherwise there may be a rash of people that "subscribe" for a month just to get the hardware upgrade.
Yep.... So? They're the ones that told us we had all the HW needed....
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,934
2,514
Seattle, WA
Not paying for it (at the time either no AP or purchasing just AP only (and not EAP) would NOT include a free hardware upgrade when it became available.
Where did Tesla indicate this? If I got into the app and pay for FSD today, they will let me do that and then set up a service appointment and get the HW for "free". Because the car was advertised as FSD capable in HW, so they can't really charge me for that... So it appears they are doing the right thing, and you didn't have to do it as part of the initial purchase.

What about those 2016-2018 buyers who had no idea HW3 was coming because Tesla had told them HW2 was all you needed for FSD?
 
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S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,522
6,268
Snohomish, WA
I voted "No, because they can't"

The reason is they advertised the cars as self-driving capable.

So it means they should be able to get FSD for the same cost as someone with HW3.

Now there is likely going to be a minimum duration of an FSD subscription.
 
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stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,500
5,449
I am not aware that Tesla has ever let you pay to upgrade. You got the upgrade for free if you had paid for FSD (as part of car purchase or afterwards). Otherwise, no upgrade for you. There are a few cars that got HW3 for "free" as part of a MCU1-MCU2 upgrade.
Don't have time yet to dig through for details, but it may be just people that were paying as part of the FSD upgrade (not necessarily a non-FSD upgrading to HW3).
Elon specifically called it "monthly".
To clarify, I'm talking about "monthly" contracts that have minimum terms. Basically what that means is you pay monthly, but you are under contract for 1-2 years, with a early termination fee (ETF) if you cancel early. You get "free" equipment as part of this, but it's actually just subsidized by the monthly fee (and ETF). This was very popular with phone carriers and remains popular with internet/TV service providers today.
Yep.... So? They're the ones that told us we had all the HW needed....
Given this first half was about what Tesla "will" do, this obviously matters as Tesla unlikely desires doing so (otherwise they would have upgraded people to HW3 before). See my later edit to the comment for more details on the "supposed" part that refers to the legal side.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,934
2,514
Seattle, WA
As for what that latter statement means legally (the discussion of what they are "supposed" to do), I think that the statement opens them up to a false advertising claim, but not a necessarily a claim of violation of purchase contract. That claim actually is already demonstratively false for earlier cars as soon as it was determined HW3 is required for FSD. The retrofits don't change this.
The difference is damages.
If they advertise something that ends up not being true, but then it has no impact on the customer, it's not really an issue. Up to this point, Tesla has made it not an issue, because whenever you buy FSD and it needs new HW, they upgrade you for free. No damages. No harm, no foul. You got the function you paid for (the car can do FSD) without additional costs.

The instant they charge you? Damages. You can go after them for the $1500 or whatever they charge you, as that is the monetary damage you incurred due to their false advertising. At least they are allowing an upgrade- without this, you might be able to argue the whole car purchase should be unwound as your only resolution to their error would be to sell the car and buy HW3 car.

o clarify, I'm talking about "monthly" contracts that have minimum terms. Basically what that means is you pay monthly, but you are under contract for 1-2 years, with a early termination fee (ETF) if you cancel early. You get "free" equipment as part of this, but it's actually just subsidized by the monthly fee (and ETF). This was very popular with phone carriers and remains popular with internet/TV service providers today.
As long as they do this for everyone, it's fine. If they only do it for people that need upgrades? Not OK, now you have the aforementioned damages, and this is a transparent backdoor to "has all the HW you need". Plus. the way the code shows above, the upgrade is independent of the subscription, so I really don't see them forcing every single owner into a multi year contract. As has been discussed, this is likely to be hundreds of dollars a month or it makes outright purchases pointless. Who is going to sign up for a two year minimum, $4800 contract? FSD on a EAP car is only $5000!

In a sense, charging EAP cars and current cars the same subscription price is already a premium for EAP/HW2 cars that could be used to pay for the upgrade.
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,934
2,514
Seattle, WA
They can do what they want.... if I was them I would. But then again, Maybe you won’t need hw3
This thread is literally about the fact that the app is already coded to make sure you have HW3 before you can sub to FSD, or they point you to an upgrade link. You'll need HW3. This is the exact same FSD software they are already using and only works on HW3.

Glad to know that you don't find any previous language Tesla used to hold them to anything!
 

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
3,143
2,166
VB
This thread is literally about the fact that the app is already coded to make sure you have HW3 before you can sub to FSD, or they point you to an upgrade link. You'll need HW3. This is the exact same FSD software they are already using and only works on HW3.

Glad to know that you don't find any previous language Tesla used to hold them to anything!

it doesn’t say hw3 specifically does it? There are some mode s cars without cameras.....
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,934
2,514
Seattle, WA
Businesses are free to conduct business the way the want (within reason) and we decide to do business with them or not.
Bank says give us your money now, we'll give it back later with 5% interest.
You go back, they say "nevermind, we're keeping it all"
And you say "just don't do business with them again, you should have seen this coming"

Contractor says they will build you a house for $150K, and needs $25K to get started.
You pay them $25K, they cut down some trees and then take off.
And you say "just don't do business with them again, you should have seen this coming"

Ford sells you a car that is unsafe, and catches on fire randomly.
You can't drive it, and nobody will buy it.
And you say "just don't do business with them again, you should have seen this coming"

Tesla sells you a car that has "all the hardware needed for FSD"
It turns out it doesn't, and they want to charge you to fix it.
And you say "just don't do business with them again, you should have seen this coming"

it doesn’t say hw3 specifically does it? There are some mode s cars without cameras.....
Pre-2016 Teslas were not sold with the statement "All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver." The code above only applies to cars that are eligible to purchase FSD at all (Oct 2016 and later).

I REALLY wish someone would explain why it's reasonable to charge for the upgrade given the "has all hardware" language, and how we as customers should have protected ourselves back in 2016 from this supposedly obvious eventuality.
 
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Daniel in SD

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2018
6,540
9,282
San Diego
Since they never said anything about a subscription when I purchased the car this seems fine. The price to buy FSD is the same for HW2.5 and HW3.
Also, HW3 doesn't drive the car at anywhere near human safety... If Tesla achieves that they'll probably give you the HW3 upgrade for free because they'll be able to make it back in subscription fees. Right now most people will probably just get the HW3 upgrade and then cancel their subscription because beta FSD is currently a party trick.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,934
2,514
Seattle, WA
Since they never said anything about a subscription when I purchased the car this seems fine. The price to buy FSD is the same for HW2.5 and HW3.
Ahh, but they didn't say the car will have the hardware if you buy FSD. They said it DOES have the hardware no matter what, even if you didn't buy FSD.
But it didn't. They were wrong.

Now, because they were wrong, you can't subscribe to something that others can, only because of your hardware difference. Something they think has value, that people who happen to have HW3 would want to subscribe to.

Now that lack of hardware makes a difference, when up to this point, it never did. It doesn't matter if FSD is a party trick, or not worth it. If it is, Tesla shouldn't sell it or allow you to subscribe. But they are, so it has value, and that is value you can't access all because Tesla was wrong about the hardware needed, but Tesla had guaranteed was included in your base purchase.

Tesla never told you how you'd be able to buy FSD in the future. They could switch to sub only. It's the same software, just paid for differently. Clearly HW2/2.5 cars can't run this SW, even though Tesla said they could.
 
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qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
3,143
2,166
VB
Why do you care for @gearchruncher

are you going to have to upgrade, or just grumbling? There is a lot to grumble about... but.... nope. Not this. You can totally chose to subscribe or not to fsd or pay or not for the upgrade. The three and a half pages you wrote as examples of why I was wrong is apples and oranges.
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,934
2,514
Seattle, WA
are you going to have to upgrade, or just grumbling?
I will absolutely subscribe for a month or two to try out the city streets beta that is coming soon, if it's a couple hundred a month or less. I won't if I have to buy a HW3 upgrade that the Tesla website said I would never have to because it was included in the original purchase price of the car.

The three and a half pages you wrote as examples of why I was wrong is apples and oranges.
Yeah, three examples of businesses making promises before you buy then changing the rules after they have you money is totally apples and oranges.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
9,993
12,038
San Diego
. I won't if I have to buy a HW3 upgrade that the Tesla website said I would never have to because it was included in the original purchase price of the car.
I have no idea how/whether your arguments would hold up in court. Maybe they would, no idea. But anyway, in theory HW3 has real value separate from FSD. So could be worth considering a subscription (if it were affordable enough and was sufficiently cheap relative to the upgrade price for FSD), just to allow you to upgrade to HW3 (and then quit the subscription). Even better if they allow you to buy HW3 upfront and terminate the subscription at any time. Of course, this HW3 value hasn't really been realized outside of FSD yet, as far as I can tell (though it would be hard to tell I would think). But presumably some day it will be.

That's my forlorn hope anyway, haha. Since I never cared about FSD features anyway, when I purchased it.
 
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stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,500
5,449
The difference is damages.
If they advertise something that ends up not being true, but then it has no impact on the customer, it's not really an issue. Up to this point, Tesla has made it not an issue, because whenever you buy FSD and it needs new HW, they upgrade you for free. No damages. No harm, no foul. You got the function you paid for (the car can do FSD) without additional costs.

The instant they charge you? Damages. You can go after them for the $1500 or whatever they charge you, as that is the monetary damage you incurred due to their false advertising. At least they are allowing an upgrade- without this, you might be able to argue the whole car purchase should be unwound as your only resolution to their error would be to sell the car and buy HW3 car.
I mention this point because in the class actions so far (for example the AP2 one) people only get pennies to the dollar for the claims and that's even for claims made on the order page. A more general false advertising claim is likely to result in even less and last I looked it up, the burden to win is higher (not sufficient to only prove

As long as they do this for everyone, it's fine. If they only do it for people that need upgrades? Not OK, now you have the aforementioned damages, and this is a transparent backdoor to "has all the HW you need". Plus. the way the code shows above, the upgrade is independent of the subscription, so I really don't see them forcing every single owner into a multi year contract. As has been discussed, this is likely to be hundreds of dollars a month or it makes outright purchases pointless. Who is going to sign up for a two year minimum, $4800 contract? FSD on a EAP car is only $5000!

In a sense, charging EAP cars and current cars the same subscription price is already a premium for EAP/HW2 cars that could be used to pay for the upgrade.
Doing minimal term contract even if it's only for "upgraders" is akin to the different subscription price strategy you mentioned above. If that's viable, I don't see why this isn't.

As for the value side, the whole point of upfront vs subscription is the subscription doesn't make financial sense once you compare. I'm sure they'll make whatever minimum contract term or ETF still be under the cost of a upfront upgrade, but it might not be a whole lot less.
 

Daniel in SD

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2018
6,540
9,282
San Diego
Ahh, but they didn't say the car will have the hardware if you buy FSD. They said it DOES have the hardware no matter what, even if you didn't buy FSD.
But it didn't. They were wrong.

Now, because they were wrong, you can't subscribe to something that others can, only because of your hardware difference. Something they think has value, that people who happen to have HW3 would want to subscribe to.

Now that lack of hardware makes a difference, when up to this point, it never did. It doesn't matter if FSD is a party trick, or not worth it. If it is, Tesla shouldn't sell it or allow you to subscribe. But they are, so it has value, and that is value you can't access all because Tesla was wrong about the hardware needed, but Tesla had guaranteed was included in your base purchase.

Tesla never told you how you'd be able to buy FSD in the future. They could switch to sub only. It's the same software, just paid for differently. Clearly HW2/2.5 cars can't run this SW, even though Tesla said they could.
Well, I think they should admit that their current vehicles will never have FSD and then offer refunds to everyone who purchased it.
I keep thinking that anyone that actually believed the vehicles had the hardware for FSD would have purchased FSD. Therefore anyone who didn't purchase FSD never expected their HW to be capable of FSD.
Whatever people are going to be able to subscribe to it's not FSD as defined for people who purchased pre-April 2019.
Anyway, I see your point and I don't really feel strongly either way. It just seems like such a minor thing relative to the whole FSD not existing thing.
 
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