Will Tesla Charge for HW3 to use a FSD subscription?

[stopcrazypp]

Well I guess we know the answer now: $1500 to upgrade to HW3 for the subscription.
Tesla launches its Full Self-Driving subscription package for $199 per month

 

[ucmndd]

I just saw this thread after conversing in the other one for five pages and now realize you’ve been working yourself into a froth on this topic for over a month. The other interaction makes much more sense now.

Just wanted to correct this:

Tesla has been putting HW3 in cars for "free" when they are in for a MCU1 to MCU2 swap. This is not advertised as part of the swap, and you do not get FSD as part of it. It is not required to upgrade to MCU2- up until recently the MCU upgrade didn't include HW3, and MCU2 is effectively what is in the 3/Y, which was HW2.5 for a while.

The bolded is not true. EVERY MCU2 upgrade for AP2/2.5 cars included HW3. It’s the only way they did it.

 

[cadetsea]

Any Canadians see an 'upgrade' option?
HW2.5 and this is all I see. I wonder how much it'll cost for us. Or if the upgrade is even allowed.

I also have free unlimited Premium Connectivity since I bought in early 2019, wouldn't put it past Tesla to accidentally remove that with the hardware switch...

 

[gearchruncher]

EVERY MCU2 upgrade for AP2/2.5 cars included HW3. It’s the only way they did it.

Flat out untrue. Upgrades started in 2020 and did not include HW3:

Wiki - FAQ: MCU2 Upgrades

Ok, so I think it's in the best interest of the community to have a sticky on what is and is NOT included with the Infotainment (aka MCU) upgrade, and to further clarify that it is separate from FSD (also referenced by APE/AP/HW3) Descriptions of MCUs and HWs below questions (via TeslaTap) Q...

teslamotorsclub.com

To MCU2 or not to MCU2?

I’ve got a 2016 P90D with 62k miles. I really like the car. I like the free supercharging, and the car is incredibly clean. I don’t drive much normally, and during COVID I drive even less (but do take some road trips). The MCU is just slow enough and buggy enough, that it has me considering...

teslamotorsclub.com

Read that and find the first mention of getting HW3. It happens in 2021. Then it stops again.

I mean, here's a quote from that thread:

No. Yes. We don't know these days. When the price was $2500, they were installing the HW3.0 AP engine (computer). Then after the price was reduced to $1500, a couple of posters said, they didn't get HW3.0. So, we all surmised, they stopped installing HW3.0 when the price changed. And in another turn of events, a couple more have said, Yes, they got HW3.0 with the $1500 price.

So your guess is as good as its going to get until you get yours done and can tell us about yours. I guess you know, you are not entitled to it (per Elon's statement that buy FSD and we upgrade you to HW3.0), because you don't have FSD purchased. So, there's no guarantee and you have do ground to argue for it. Maybe they will. Why they have been doing HW3.0 with MCU2 when the owners did not pay for FSD ? --- We don't know. No one's got an answer to that.

 

[jjrandorin]

I just saw this thread after conversing in the other one for five pages and now realize you’ve been working yourself into a froth on this topic for over a month.

I believe @gearchruncher 's position on this has been the same for much longer than a month.

 

[ucmndd]

Flat out untrue. Upgrades started in 2020 and did not include HW3:

Yes, they did. Mine was done in July 2020 and included HW3 (no, I don’t have the FSD package). Every reported upgrade before mine also included HW3 - indeed, this is what actually pushed me over the edge to upgrade. Your information is quite simply wrong. If you can find me a single verifiable claim of an MCU upgrade on a 2.0 or 2.5 car that didn’t include HW3, I’ll eat my hat.

There is one known part number for the infotainment upgrade for 2.0/2.5 cars:

9874562-00-A - MCU INTEL HW3 UPGRADE-For TegraAP2.0- NA

It says so right there.

 

[aregel]

My MX was produced in July 2017 and has MCU1 and HW2.5 with EAP installed. Why the hell shall I pay a $1,500 fee in addition to the $99 subscription?

They said officially with their statement of Oct. 2016 that "all Tesla cars being produced now have FSD hardware". That means MCU2 + HW3 for free - sorry guys.

 

[Fairchild]

$199 a month for four less than optimal features is nutzo.

Tesla will find that FSD on a monthly service basis is about as popular a battery switching, but quite as popular as the snake auto charger for this too lazy to plug in!

 

[mrkymarc]

I don't know if I'm remembering wrong, and maybe it became clear sometime after I got my car in July 2018 with Enhanced Autopilot, but I remember always thinking that I'd need to upgrade to FSD to get the HW3 computer. Maybe this was clear when the HW3 computer was announced?

The bigger issue, in my opinion, is that if the promised EAP features like NOA continue to improve on HW3 and beyond while the software on my car stagnates due to hardware limitations. In that case then I would feel entitled to a free hardware upgrade.

 

[mark95476]

You should have bought the FSD option when offered. That was your choice. It was probably something like $3000 then and included a HW3 or whatever computer that's necessary to support FSD.

Now it's $10k. Or $1500 for a HW3 computer and $200/100 per month. This is your choice now.

My MX was produced in July 2017 and has MCU1 and HW2.5 with EAP installed. Why the hell shall I pay a $1,500 fee in addition to the $99 subscription?

They said officially with their statement of Oct. 2016 that "all Tesla cars being produced now have FSD hardware". That means MCU2 + HW3 for free - sorry guys.

We'll see. FSD is getting better every iteration and they're going to be adding new features. Will the subscription stay at $200/month or will it increase in the future?

I don't have to think about this. I locked-in FSD at $5k on my MY. I locked-in FSD at $10k on my CT.

$199 a month for four less than optimal features is nutzo.

Tesla will find that FSD on a monthly service basis is about as popular a battery switching, but quite as popular as the snake auto charger for this too lazy to plug in!

 

[outdoors]

Flat out untrue. Upgrades started in 2020 and did not include HW3:

Well I was I think the first MCU1 to 2 EAP and I got the FSD computer/HW3 during my upgrade without asking. Someone can feel free to dig in my post history as I posted it. I think I recall saying how I was completely surprised and didn't say anything sheepishly until I called back and they said no that's the standard procedure.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The bigger issue, in my opinion, is that if the promised EAP features like NOA continue to improve on HW3 and beyond while the software on my car stagnates due to hardware limitations. In that case then I would feel entitled to a free hardware upgrade.

Why?
I was in the same situation as you. I figured NOA would stagnate (why wouldn’t it?). But it was feature complete - got what I was promised.

Since I wanted to make sure it didn’t stagnate, and kept up for a couple more years, I bought HW3 as an add-on (FSD), a couple years after purchasing the car.

I fully expect HW3 will stagnate in a few years, but it is what it is, and if Autosteer on City Streets does the expected horrible job, but has been released, I do not expect to be “owed” an upgrade to HW4. I’ll get the L2 system that was promised post 2019. I strongly considered waiting on getting the HW3 upgrade until HW4 was mainstream, but decided against it (since it is not even clear whether Tesla will allow a HW2->HW4 path). Just so I would be even more up-to-date.

So why would you expect a free upgrade if you got your features delivered? Of course they will get better with more capable hardware, but what specifically would entitle you to that improvement t? Why do you get that while others have paid to upgrade their EAP - some specifically so that “NOA on Freeway” features were kept up to date?

What about the verbiage when you bought the car makes you think you are entitled to indefinite future upgrades to EAP features which your hardware is not capable of supporting? I certainly expected no such thing, based on my purchase contract. I expected NOA, which I got eventually, performing at the expected extremely mediocre level.

 

[mrkymarc]

Entitled is probably too strong of a word for how I feel. More like disappointed if this is the way it stays. You can say EAP is feature complete all you want, but when my wife is yelling at me to turn it off after it phantom brakes for an overpass shadow yesterday then it doesn't feel like I'm fully getting what was promised. On the bright side at least I have an upgrade path for my computer if this is the way it stays.

Also, I looked back at the verbiage from Tesla itself in how it described enhanced autopilot and I do think I was remembering the hype more than their actual words. I thought I remembered them saying that EAP will basically be fully hands off driving on the freeway (Level 3ish), but now it seems like that was more of the hype and they mostly just promised the features of current NOA.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

You can say EAP is feature complete all you want, but when my wife is yelling at me to turn it off after it phantom brakes for an overpass shadow yesterday then it doesn't feel like I'm fully getting what was promised.

Oh, I know. EAP is best used when driving solo. For your info: I have no idea whether my HW3-equipped vehicle performs better than a HW2-equipped one. Arguably it's worse with HW3, I think, when using it outside the ODD - because it reads speed limit signs and spuriously changes the vehicle speed and the detected speed limit. (This can even happen inside the ODD, I have found.) But these aren't the same as phantom events. Just additional annoying events. Determining relative likelihood of phantom events with HW2 vs. HW3 would be pretty difficult to test.

All that being said, I'd expect minimal further improvements in a HW2 vehicle at this point, especially with the focus now on vision only.

 

[helvio]

Oh, I know. EAP is best used when driving solo. For your info: I have no idea whether my HW3-equipped vehicle performs better than a HW2-equipped one. Arguably it's worse with HW3, I think, when using it outside the ODD - because it reads speed limit signs and spuriously changes the vehicle speed and the detected speed limit. (This can even happen inside the ODD, I have found.) But these aren't the same as phantom events. Just additional annoying events. Determining relative likelihood of phantom events with HW2 vs. HW3 would be pretty difficult to test.

All that being said, I'd expect minimal further improvements in a HW2 vehicle at this point, especially with the focus now on vision only.

What is ODD?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

What is ODD?

Operational Design Domain

 

[helvio]

Operational Design Domain

Thanks, I tried to look that up, but "odd" is a word, and it was extremely hard to find the right info!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Thanks, I tried to look that up, but "odd" is a word, and it was extremely hard to find the right info!

odd self driving

Google is so smart.

 

[helvio]

odd self driving

Google is so smart.

Worked lol
I searched for "what does ODD mean in autonomy" and got... "Oppositional Defiant Disorder"

 

[stopcrazypp]

Worked lol
I searched for "what does ODD mean in autonomy" and got... "Oppositional Defiant Disorder"

As a frequent googler, phrasing things in question format does not help (rather it makes matters worse has you found), given you aren't asking a question to a human, but rather using a search engine that looks for keywords. Better to just throw in relevant keywords and leave out all the unnecessary supporting words.

For example instead of putting your "question", if you instead only put relevant keywords:
"ODD meaning autonomy"

I get on the top:

Operational Design Domain

Operational Design Domain (ODD)
An ODD is the Operational Design Domain which is a way to specify the environment where a given autonomous vehicle can operate. ODDs are important to define because depending on the ODD you may need different sensors or different vehicles, and likely different autonomous functionality.

Autonomy Levels & Options — Perrone Robotics, Inc.

www.perronerobotics.com