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Will Tesla remove FSD from used inventory?

CapeOne

Active Member
Jun 14, 2016
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Interestingly, the only used cars you can find without FSD are the high mileage, really old Model S inventory. They must be getting more desperate to get rid of those cars now.
On older Teslas, adding FSD becomes an AP hardware issue which is not as simple (or cheap/free) as adding to newer and/or already updated AP2 to AP3 cars. It also has nothing to do with "high mileage" cars as Tesla currently has low mileage (as little as 15k miles) MS models without FSD. An example: 2016 Model S | Tesla
 
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Does anybody know what's added to an FSD car? I assume all Teslas are pre-wired for it, so it should be a simple module plug-in IMO, and the obvious re-programming of the software. Or is it something more involved? Curious what it takes to retrofit FSD to a non-FSD car. I assume it's something simple (like HomeLink), since Tesla keeps pushing me to upgrade to FSD, when the car is already here. So it can be installed by a mobile unit, I suppose. Curious what has to be added.
 
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Does anybody know what's added to an FSD car? I assume all Teslas are pre-wired for it, so it should be a simple module plug-in IMO, and the obvious re-programming of the software. Or is it something more involved? Curious what it takes to retrofit FSD to a non-FSD car. I assume it's something simple (like HomeLink), since Tesla keeps pushing me to upgrade to FSD, when the car is already here. So it can be installed by a mobile unit, I suppose. Curious what has to be added.
Its all just software. The hardware is already in place, just need to be activated.
 
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S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
6,852
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Snohomish, WA
It was maybe ~6k off from similar mileage cars.

Do anyone else find this to be uncompetitive behavior where Tesla is adding SW features to sell used vehicles at a higher margin than a local dealer could?

Where they're drastically discounting the SW feature they added to the used vehicle.

As an owner of a Model 3 with FSD this decreases my resale as I have to compete with Tesla greatly discounting this on used vehicles.

To make matter worse they've admitted they value FSD on a trade in at zero dollars so I can't get anything for it by trading it in to Tesla.

It's not just FSD, but its also things like acceleration boost.

It's actually better for a customer not to have these features as they benefit from the appearance of a greater resale value. It's appearance of it because it doesn't take into account that Tesla is taking substantially less margins on the SW features in order to push the resale value up on used vehicles.

I can't imagine being a specialty EV dealer, and trying to compete with what Tesla can do.
 
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S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
6,852
8,422
Snohomish, WA
It looks like there has been a change of "policy." There are now used Teslas (HW 2.0 to 3.0) showing up on the Tesla website without FSD included.

I think this is a direct result of Elons tweet where he agreed that giving $0 for FSD on a trade in wasn't fair. People are starting to look into what Tesla has been doing, and Tesla has to scramble to fix it before the FTC looks into it.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
13,547
10,113
I think this is a direct result of Elons tweet where he agreed that giving $0 for FSD on a trade in wasn't fair. People are starting to look into what Tesla has been doing, and Tesla has to scramble to fix it before the FTC looks into it.
Not quite a fair take. Tesla never admitted to giving $0 for FSD on a trade. It was a claim from one tweeter and Elon said he would look into it and agreed FSD should be valued on trade (but never said that Tesla didn't value it).
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1351016753372016647

I can't find it now, but I remember reading a similar thread here (might even by the same person) where people pointed out the person had no evidence that they valued FSD at zero, given there are many factors to how much a used car is valued.

Edit: Found it here. The person was comparing to KBB average values to claim his FSD was not being valued. The reality is Tesla (really any trade-in even by other manufacturers) tends to offer lower values than KBB may say.
Trading Model 3 with FSD for Model Y with FSD
Trading Model 3 with FSD for Model Y with FSD [complaint about FSD pricing].

As for what Tesla is doing now on their used car inventory, it's more likely to prepare for the upcoming Model S/X updates to clear out inventory. It's a huge stretch to claim some FTC issue, as this doesn't appear to be something much people care about.
Tesla Reportedly Clearing Out Model S & X Inventory Ahead Of Refresh
 
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S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
6,852
8,422
Snohomish, WA
Not quite a fair take. Tesla never admitted to giving $0 for FSD on a trade. It was a claim from one tweeter and Elon said he would look into it and agreed FSD should be valued on trade (but never said that Tesla didn't value it).
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1351016753372016647

I can't find it now, but I remember reading a similar thread here (might even by the same person) where people pointed out the person had no evidence that they valued FSD at zero, given there are many factors to how much a used car is valued.

Edit: Found it here. The person was comparing to KBB average values to claim his FSD was not being valued. The reality is Tesla (really any trade-in even by other manufacturers) tends to offer lower values than KBB may say.
Trading Model 3 with FSD for Model Y with FSD
Trading Model 3 with FSD for Model Y with FSD [complaint about FSD pricing].

As for what Tesla is doing now on their used car inventory, it's more likely to prepare for the upcoming Model S/X updates to clear out inventory. It's a huge stretch to claim some FTC issue, as this doesn't appear to be something much people care about.
Tesla Reportedly Clearing Out Model S & X Inventory Ahead Of Refresh

I wasn't simply going off the tweet as it was just one persons account, but complaints on TMC about not getting a fair amount for their FSD enabled vehicle. The tweet just lit the fire because of who the tweet was from.

What we know is FSD isn't valued very high on the used market whether its Tesla or anyone else.

Why is that?

It's a SW feature that depends on HW3, and the SW hasn't gotten any cheaper. HW3 is still the same sensor suite used. So by all accounts it should hold its value pretty well.

What's dragging it down?

If we look at it from a Supply and Demand perspective we see there is a LOT of supply of FSD vehicles, and way more so than expected. Why so many? The obvious answer is Tesla added it to used vehicles. Why would they add it? To improve the margins on it.

Basically they flooded the market with FSD vehicles, and now FSD isn't worth anywhere close to the $8K let alone $10K that it currently goes for.

Adding FSD to vehicles at substantially below cost (that a customer would normally pay) is what I would look at if I was the FTC.

I'm not saying Tesla did this, but there is evidence to suggest that they did.

I'm also not saying they broke any rules as expensive SW enabled features on a car is something that's never happened before. Its worth looking into as the future of automobiles is SW enabled features and we need to make sure the playing field is level in the used car market.
 
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stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
13,547
10,113
I wasn't simply going off the tweet as it was just one persons account, but complaints on TMC about not getting a fair amount for their FSD enabled vehicle. The tweet just lit the fire because of who the tweet was from.

What we know is FSD isn't valued very high on the used market whether its Tesla or anyone else.

Why is that?

It's a SW feature that depends on HW3, and the SW hasn't gotten any cheaper. HW3 is still the same sensor suite used. So by all accounts it should hold its value pretty well.

What's dragging it down?

If we look at it from a Supply and Demand perspective we see there is a LOT of supply of FSD vehicles, and way more so than expected. Why so many? The obvious answer is Tesla added it to used vehicles. Why would they add it? To improve the margins on it.

Basically they flooded the market with FSD vehicles, and now FSD isn't worth anywhere close to the $8K let alone $10K that it currently goes for.

Adding FSD to vehicles at substantially below cost (that a customer would normally pay) is what I would look at if I was the FTC.
FTC only looks at issues that many consumers bring up. This affects so little people FTC will never bother (the only people who chose to buy FSD obviously thought it would be worth it initially, then you have to find the subset that sold their car, then the subset within that which were unhappy enough to report to authorities, which would filter up to FTC).

I'm not saying Tesla did this, but there is evidence to suggest that they did.

Well you said that they admitted they did this right here:
To make matter worse they've admitted they value FSD on a trade in at zero dollars so I can't get anything for it by trading it in to Tesla
I presume you agree that's not the correct take and won't keep saying that (I remember you saying something similar in other thread that other person rebutted for similar reason, as Elon in no way said that, nor did alternatively anyone present direct evidence of a Tesla employee saying that they value FSD at $0 on trade in).
 

CapeOne

Active Member
Jun 14, 2016
1,149
820
New England
I think this is a direct result of Elons tweet where he agreed that giving $0 for FSD on a trade in wasn't fair. People are starting to look into what Tesla has been doing, and Tesla has to scramble to fix it before the FTC looks into it.

What, exactly, would you want the FTC to investigate and find issue with? Fair or not, Tesla is not obligated to offer customers a certain amount for FSD on trades, nor are customers obligated to accept the trade offer. Tesla is also not obligated to add/charge the full retail price of FSD on their cars.

I'm wondering if this move away from automatically including FSD on eligible used inventory cars may have something to do with the expected upcoming addition of a monthly subscription pricing model for FSD.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
6,852
8,422
Snohomish, WA
What, exactly, would you want the FTC to investigate and find issue with? Fair or not, Tesla is not obligated to offer customers a certain amount for FSD on trades, nor are customers obligated to accept the trade offer. Tesla is also not obligated to add/charge the full retail price of FSD on their cars.

I'm wondering if this move away from automatically including FSD on eligible used inventory cars may have something to do with the expected upcoming addition of a monthly subscription pricing model for FSD.

The earning call is going to happen on the 27th so hopefully they'll announce more information on the monthly subscription pricing, and when it will start. I believe they will not continue to add FSD to vehicles when they have the subscription model as the subscription model is better for a long term revenue stream.

What I believe the FTC/Government needs to do is to determine if its fair for Tesla who is massively vertically integrated to add SW features to USED vehicles at a highly discounted price where they undercut the fair market value for those SW features.

Is it or is not a case of uncompetitive business practice?

SW is going to be such a massive percentage of the cost of a vehicle that we need to question whether its okay for company like Tesla to resell a vehicle with additional SW that it didn't have originally.

If we do then its going to price out any third party dealer. Not only that, but it will make it difficult for an owner to compete price wise when selling the vehicle privately.

Now I know that at anytime Tesla can change the price/features on a new car, but generally it in their best interest to protect resale value.

But, when they can add SW which has no cost to them to a vehicle their in a special position where they can protect margins for themselves while causing me to lose money. That their in an unfair position of power.

It reduces competition as well as it effectively eliminates third party dealers. Why would anyone buy from them when Tesla offers a better deal?

FSD in particular is a very uncompetitive option as its value isn't in what it does today, but what it might do tomorrow. So it means people are buying Tesla even when they don't plan on getting FSD immediately. They do because they feel like it has the real potential for autonomous driving, but its more likely then not that it will never do so. Even on TMC there are only a few true believers left,
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
6,852
8,422
Snohomish, WA
I presume you agree that's not the correct take

It was based on Tesla admitting to that customer that they valued FSD on a trade in at zero dollars.

Now I agree that we don't know the whole story.

Maybe the customer was lying, but I doubt this given that the customer was Pierre Ferragu
Maybe the team he was talking to didn't know what they were talking about
Maybe that is exactly what Tesla was doing

I did find it a bothersome that Tesla didn't use that opportunity to clarify the situation. The only response was Elon saying he was going to look into it, and that he agreed that it wasn't fair.

I find it a little strange that you're more concerned about the exactness of my language versus the fact that we know there is a serious problem with the valuation of FSD on trade ins. We also know that the amount of used FSD vehicles with FSD don't seem to measure up with the expected take rate, and this has been reported on TMC.

You're suspiciously protective of the Tesla, and I wonder why that is. You don't seem to acknowledge how troubling that tweet exchange really was in combination with what's been reported on TMC.

I feel like we have to be protective of the customer because we ARE the customer. Where I'm simply more willing to give the customer the benefit of the doubt.

I will continue on with giving the customer the benefit of the doubt.
 
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S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
6,852
8,422
Snohomish, WA
FTC only looks at issues that many consumers bring up. This affects so little people FTC will never bother (the only people who chose to buy FSD obviously thought it would be worth it initially, then you have to find the subset that sold their car, then the subset within that which were unhappy enough to report to authorities, which would filter up to FTC).

You do realize that car dealers still have a lot of political clout right? That they have more power to have things looked into than we consumers do.

If I was a used car dealer I would be worried about Tesla.
 

CapeOne

Active Member
Jun 14, 2016
1,149
820
New England
What I believe the FTC/Government needs to do is to determine if its fair for Tesla who is massively vertically integrated to add SW features to USED vehicles at a highly discounted price where they undercut the fair market value for those SW features.

Is it or is not a case of uncompetitive business practice?

Used Teslas are such a small part of the overall used car market that what Tesla does or doesn't do when it comes to valuing or pricing of FSD on used cars would be of little interest to the FTC.

Dealers wouldn't care much either. If Tesla chooses to offer low trade-in values for FSD and/or sell used Teslas with FSD at significant discounts, that drives down its value and the overall value of used Teslas in the market which means used car dealers would be able to buy at lower prices and therefore still compete with Tesla’s asking prices.

The only people that might have a reason to complain would be original (new purchase) Tesla owners dealing with disappointing resale values. It could discourage customers from even buying FSD on new Teslas or adding it to their existing car if the value was expected to drop so much.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
13,547
10,113
It was based on Tesla admitting to that customer that they valued FSD on a trade in at zero dollars.

Now I agree that we don't know the whole story.

Maybe the customer was lying, but I doubt this given that the customer was Pierre Ferragu
Maybe the team he was talking to didn't know what they were talking about
Maybe that is exactly what Tesla was doing
None of those have to be true. Look at the thread I linked, it was simply the customer not familiar with how used car values are calculated and he felt the relatively low value he got (vs KBB) was mainly from FSD not being counted.

I did find it a bothersome that Tesla didn't use that opportunity to clarify the situation. The only response was Elon saying he was going to look into it, and that he agreed that it wasn't fair.

I find it a little strange that you're more concerned about the exactness of my language versus the fact that we know there is a serious problem with the valuation of FSD on trade ins. We also know that the amount of used FSD vehicles with FSD don't seem to measure up with the expected take rate, and this has been reported on TMC.
I'm an engineering type and I tend to correct people who use the wrong language (especially if it implies something completely different). I've seen how sloppy language like this turns into the telephone game and gets repeated until everyone thinks its true. Tesla actually saying they valued FSD at $0 in trade in is completely different from someone that thought they did due to getting a low trade in value.

You're suspiciously protective of the Tesla, and I wonder why that is. You don't seem to acknowledge how troubling that tweet exchange really was in combination with what's been reported on TMC.
It's not troubling to me because from what I see there is no evidence of Tesla valuing FSD at $0 in trade in (again, I read the exchange here in the other thread and it seemed like the same person or a similar situation to me). That Elon is willing to look into it is an extra bonus.

If you need evidence that Tesla does value FSD at more than $0 at trade in it's not hard to find either in the same thread linked:
Trading Model 3 with FSD for Model Y with FSD [complaint about FSD pricing].
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
6,852
8,422
Snohomish, WA
None of those have to be true. Look at the thread I linked, it was simply the customer not familiar with how used car values are calculated and he felt the relatively low value he got (vs KBB) was mainly from FSD not being counted.


I'm an engineering type and I tend to correct people who use the wrong language (especially if it implies something completely different). I've seen how sloppy language like this turns into the telephone game and gets repeated until everyone thinks its true. Tesla actually saying they valued FSD at $0 in trade in is completely different from someone that thought they did due to getting a low trade in value.


It's not troubling to me because from what I see there is no evidence of Tesla valuing FSD at $0 in trade in (again, I read the exchange here in the other thread and it seemed like the same person or a similar situation to me). That Elon is willing to look into it is an extra bonus.

If you need evidence that Tesla does value FSD at more than $0 at trade in it's not hard to find either in the same thread linked:
Trading Model 3 with FSD for Model Y with FSD [complaint about FSD pricing].

For the sake of clarity lets table the TMC threads and focus specifically on the tweet as that was what led to my response. The various TMC threads on the issue just set the stage in my brain before I read the tweet. Like one was the gas, and the other was the match.

This is the tweet from the customer "I paid FSD for my Model 3 in November. I now want to upgrade to model Y and your team tells me you don't value FSD in your trade-in offer because you can do the software upgrade for free. Want me to pay again full price for FSD again? That's not fair, change that!"

So he's claiming the team told him they don't value FSD in a trade-in offer because they can do the software upgrade for free.

Elon didn't reject the claim
Tesla didn't reject the claim despite knowing exactly who the customer was, and the role he plays in the tech investment world
We know tesla can do the software upgrade for free
We know FSD was on a lot of used vehicles being sold by Tesla

So now we have to ask ourselves is this true?

The evidence points to it being true.

Now does that mean its conclusively true? No, but tesla doesn't operate with much transparency so how would we ever really know for certain? Sometimes when companies operate without much transparency the best reaction is to play hardball. That way they're forced to reveal what the hell is actually going on.

To have such a vertically integrated company having so much control over a product their sell for the entire life of that product sets a dangerous precedence whether its tesla or some tractor company.

Sure I agree with you that ideally one needs more evidence to say a strong statement, but at the same FSD owners have gotten screwed over. So I think we need to push back.

I'm tired of seeing owners make excuses for Tesla.

Tesla is not our friend.
 

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