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will the 60 kWh battery be enough for me?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by elreydetodo, Dec 1, 2012.

  1. elreydetodo

    elreydetodo #14,427

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    I've put down my deposit on a Model S and I'm incredibly excited. I'm currently back in the queue past position 14k, so it's going to be a long time waiting..

    Anyway, I'm trying to decide if the 60kWh battery will be enough for a regular weekend trip I make from Marlborough, MA to Brandon, VT. It's about 200 miles, with the final 80 miles being mostly 40-50mph on curvy, mountainy roads. I'll pass near some chargers in Concord, but I'd rather be able to do this in a single charge. There are no real charge stations past that, though I might be able to find a house willing to let me steal some power if its an emergency. People are nice in Vermont :)

    Does anyone else make similar trips with their Model S? Any idea how claiming a small mountain will affect driving range, since there's a lot of regent potential on the downhill?
     
  2. ahimberg

    ahimberg Member

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    there are no 60kWh's produced yet, or EPA ratings so no one knows for sure. Some articles have mentioned a 180 EPA range for the 60, so 200miles would probably be stretching it. Stopping mid way for an hour and picking up 30 miles of range would likely be in order. Once you've done it a few times you can probably tune a minimum pit stop would need to be...

    Also there is mention of a 'range driving mode' in the latest software update, perhaps that will help a bit.
     
  3. bosgig

    bosgig Member

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    At first glance I'd say "no way", but you have the advantage of driving right by what will likely be a supercharger location at White River Junction. WRJ is about 140 miles from Marlborough. I do a trip from the western 'burbs to Stratton, which is about 140 miles as well. I'm doing the 85kWh, but will still have to charge overnight, even if I charge in range mode. In my opinion forget any charger except the supercharger when you're actually trying to get somewhere--the J1772's around here are too slow if you need more than about 50 miles of incremental range. I'm counting on getting about 220 miles of range going up to Stratton if I charge in range mode (fortunately it's very infrequent). For you, the supercharger plus an overnight charge would probably do it. Since you go regularly, though, I'd recommend doing the 85 kWh just for some peace of mind. If you do the 60kWh, absolutely do the supercharging option. There are other threads for estimating the effect of elevation--I believe around 7-8 miles per 1000 feet of elevation is the general view, with only a fraction recovered coming back down. Also consider posting on the New England thread if you don't get a good enough answer here.
     
  4. DaveVa

    DaveVa Sig Perf #236 VIN #484

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    I would definitely buy the 85kwh. I have a 180mile trip that I take regularly - it saves you from range mode charging and the worry if ou have to detour or run an errand.
     
  5. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    Sounds like you go up I-93 to I-89. You might look at taking I-495 to MA-117 to I-195 to MA-2 to MA-140 to MA-12 to US-5 to VT-103 to US-7. It's a lot shorter (~150 miles) and not much slower. Nice roads, too, and much more scenic. That route should be achievable with the 60kWh.

    But, you should get the 85kWh battery. The EPA rating on the 60kWh pack is likely to be 200 to 205 miles (derating the 230 mile advertised range by the same 265/300 ratio of the 85kWh pack). With your drive, the you'll have that long run (84 miles) on I-89, which usually moves along at a 70+ mph clip. While you'll make up some of that on the ~40 miles through Vermont on slower roads, you'll be cutting it close -- with a range charge and a new battery.

    Those last two points are why I shifted from the 60kWh to the 85kWh battery. Like you, I have a long drive (up to Maine, for me), that I make >30 roundtrips each year between houses. Range charging isn't good for your battery, and so I was concerned that ~60 range charges per year was going to create risks. Second, as the battery degrades (in part because of those range charges), the trip just becomes too long for a single charge.

    I also concluded that New England is perfectly sized for the 85kWh. From your (or my) house, you can go to Tanglewood and back. pr Chatham (Cape Cod) and back, etc. Until the charging network is built out a lot more than it is, the "and back" piece is important to me. The 60kWh gets you there; the 85kWh gets you back.
     
  6. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    I agree that the 85 is what you should be looking at. The small mountain range will add the equivalent of seven miles for each one thousand feet of elevation gain. You don't get it all back going downhill because regeneration is similar to lossy compression on audio.
     
  7. elreydetodo

    elreydetodo #14,427

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    It's been a long time since I've done that route, but it seems very likely to be manageable with the 60kWH battery. I think at sub-interstate speeds most of the way I should easily be able to do that trip in one charge.A lot of people are suggesting the 85kWh battery because it will get you "there and back". In new england, the farthest I'll probably ever want to go on one charge is NYC, which is also about 200 miles for me. I don't know that I'll take many road trips in this car, and if I do I'd probably try to plan to find a charge point at the destination. Most places I randomly visit are < 100 miles each way, so I would still probably make it back on a charge. It is cutting it close though, so I'm strongly considering upgrading the battery.Thanks for the input!
     
  8. ahimberg

    ahimberg Member

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    I'm expecting the EPA rating to be more like 182-187 -- given the reports with the 85kWh that only 80 is used before you hit zero, something like 5 is kept as a reserve (maybe the reserve is a % though so it will be 3.5). If I take 5kWh out of both and scale 265 that's where the 182 comes, 187 if the reserve scales. We'll all know soon enough when the EPA rating come out... Maybe it will be higher if the weight of the 60 is lower, which would give us a hint of either ballast or different battery chemistry being used if the weight tis the same..
     
  9. 100thMonkey

    100thMonkey Member

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    #9 100thMonkey, Dec 2, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
    here is how we are approaching it, for what it's worth as a Leaf owner of 24 K miles over almost two years, we are buying the S as a keeper, long term, as our experience with driving electric has been awesome! I assume that even with the S that in the worst of scenarios we'll get half the rated range in say a heavy head wind, crossing a mountain pass, snow and rain and cold etc, and that over ten to fifteen years we can expect to see a 15-30% loss in range from normal aging of the battery. Also, I assume that the ideal place to keep the battery charged on a daily basis is somewhere around 50% SOC, that is our plan based on my study of Li-ion batteries. From owning the Leaf, albeit a shorter range car, you want a lot more range than you think you will need on a regular basis, a cushion for the unexpected, enough range that keeping the car near 50% SOC is still plenty for daily commuting and errands and enough range for the occasional long range trip with minimal public charging. We have had all sorts of ideals about slowing down, being more zen and getting used to waiting for the car to charge, but we've concluded that given that we are a family of 4 and are generally in a hurry, we really don't hardly ever want to wait for the car to charge. Given all these factors, combined with the presumption that the 85kW will hold it's value better (in case we do decide to upgrade down the line) we are almost certain we are going to finalize our order with the maximum range.

    you may not think it now, but you will likely want to drive your S in less than the most efficient manner at least on occasion ... I'd recommend assuming that that means 200 miles with some breathing room, is a reasonable expectation for the P85 driven liberally, about what Motor Trend got with "hard driving".
     
  10. steve841

    steve841 Active Member

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    You've got plenty of time to make the financial jump to the 85 battery ... do it.

    Who knows? Maybe by then, the 85 will be a 350 or 375 battery as technology moves ahead.
     
  11. elreydetodo

    elreydetodo #14,427

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    You guys are such a bad influence on me :pI've upgraded to the 85kWh battery, and decided to go with dual chargers as well. Does anyone know if adding the second charger might be possible at a later date? I really have no idea if I'll ever get to use a supercharging station, so this could be a total waste of money. I've also heard that the second charger might be delaying some car deliveries due to availability, but that might be outdated info by now.So my current config is: blue w/ tan, 85 kWh battery, 19" wheels, tech package, premium sound, pano roof. WHY ISN'T 9 MONTHS FROM NOW ALREADY?! ;-)

    - - - Updated - - -

    You guys are such a bad influence on me :pI've upgraded to the 85kWh battery, and decided to go with dual chargers as well. Does anyone know if adding the second charger might be possible at a later date? I really have no idea if I'll ever get to use a supercharging station, so this could be a total waste of money. I've also heard that the second charger might be delaying some car deliveries due to availability, but that might be outdated info by now.So my current config is: blue w/ tan, 85 kWh battery, 19" wheels, tech package, premium sound, pano roof. WHY ISN'T 9 MONTHS FROM NOW ALREADY?! ;-)
     
  12. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    Twin chargers (AC, > 40A) and supercharging (DC) are not related. FYI.

    Twin chargers are useful for when you are going to charge at > 40A on a Model S HPWC, Roadster HPC (with adapter that I'm unclear on the availability of), etc.
     
  13. 100thMonkey

    100thMonkey Member

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    resistance if futile! :eek:

     
  14. bosgig

    bosgig Member

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    Don't bother with the dual chargers unless you're doing the HPWC. The J1772's around here aren't powerful enough to take advantage of it and the superchargers bypass the onboard chargers.
     
  15. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    +1. The West Coast has a bunch of high-amp EVSEs (the "Tesla Highway"), and Sun Country is building a trans-Canada string of high-amp EVSEs, but around here, not so much. There are a few Roadster owners who have installed HPCs in strategic locations (particularly hcsharp, near White River Jct), but they are too few and far between for me to justify $1500.

    Supercharging is available without the twin chargers. The Superchargers have their own inverters that pump DC power directly into your battery.

    We're fairly confident that the second charger can be retrofitted later, undoubtedly at a higher cost, but it still remains an option if more high-amp charge stations become available (or if you or your car moves to the West Coast or Canada).
     
  16. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    Resistance can be countered with a thicker cable...

    Where's that enforcer picture again? ;)
     
  17. Brian H

    Brian H Banned

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    Clearly we need superconducting SuperChargers! I'm sure one of the Borg's component races had developed them. Assimilation is the Answer!
     
  18. mulder1231

    mulder1231 Active Member

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    Now that the EPA range is confirmed at 208 miles for the 60kWh pack, does that change your opinion? You could probably do the trip comfortably on a single charge if you drive a bit more conservatively compared to the EPA 5-cycle test.

    Looks like you still have plenty of time for a final decision.
     

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