Will the "Model 2" have a steering wheel and pedals?

[daniel]

I would be already upset if i purchased fsd for $5000 or more.

I'm not sure if I'd have been more upset at Tesla for making empty promises, or at myself for believing them. I didn't buy FSD because I simply didn't believe the promises.

In 2006 or 7 I bought a Zap Xebra, upgraded by the dealership with 40 miles (range) worth of glass-mat lead-acid batteries. Soon after that, lithium ion batteries were all the rage and I was considering upgrading again. At a meeting of a local EV club (mostly people doing DIY EV conversions) the club president made an announcement: A company called EEStor was developing monster capacitors. Don't replace your lead-acid batteries with lithium because in six months there will be ultra-capacitors that hold more energy in less volume and a fraction of the weight and and lower cost. This would have been 2007 or 8.

I looked up EEStor and saw that they had just announced a big breakthrough: They had succeeded in refining the material they intended to use as the dielectric for their capacitors.

They had not demonstrated an actual capacitor, just claimed to have created the dielectric material. Yet we were being told that we'd have ultra-capacitors in six months. I reasoned that first they needed to actually make a capacitor and demonstrate its actual capacity. Then they'd have to test it for safety. Then they'd have to build a factory to make them. This was not going to happen in six months! I said they were a scam, and we never heard from them again. The ZENN car company went bankrupt after having invested everything they had in EEStor.

I tell this long story, which many here may remember, because even though Tesla actually makes cars, and they're the best cars on the road today, FSD is like EEStor's ultra-capacitor: It just doesn't make sense that they could have true FSD ready for mass distribution in the time they are promising. EEStor promised capacitors for the consumer in 6 months based on a milestone that was really just the first baby step toward a functioning product. Tesla is promising a car without a steering wheel in the near future, based on a Level 2 autosteer system that is still decades away from being ready for wide-area Level 4 operation.

 

[qdeathstar]

Musk says they don’t want to sell cars once fsd is perfected. Selling a robo taxi for $25K doesn’t make any sense unless it is for sale for commercial purposes only where a business will pay Tesla a high yearly fee to access the software that enables the robotaxi. If there is a $25K Tesla without a steering wheel it won’t be something me and you can buy.

 

[smogne41]

Tying the $25k Tesla to FSD being fully functional is a very convenient way to indefinitely put off making a $25k Tesla...

 

[Lexdysic]

Don't understand. How does a $25,000 car include the $10,000 FSD option as standard equipment? Please don't say Tesla will require a subscription since most people in this price range can't afford a monthly payment. Many live paycheck to paycheck and getting laid off means no extra money and then their car becomes a brick that they need to find a new job?????

That's an incredibly insulting, offensive, and frankly stupid thing to say. My wife earns over $230k a year and drives a 10 year old Elantra that she bought for $15k. You honestly think most people in the $25k price range can't afford a monthly payment and live paycheck to paycheck?

We may enjoy cars, but not everyone cares about vehicles as we do. Some just want basic transportation that costs as little as possible, despite their annual earnings. She doesn't consider her car a status symbol. (and I agree with her 100%)

 

[daniel]

Musk says they don’t want to sell cars once fsd is perfected. Selling a robo taxi for $25K doesn’t make any sense unless it is for sale for commercial purposes only where a business will pay Tesla a high yearly fee to access the software that enables the robotaxi. If there is a $25K Tesla without a steering wheel it won’t be something me and you can buy.

So then why did he say that Tesla would sell the Model 2 without a steering wheel for $25K?

For that matter, why is he selling FSD now, with the promise that some day the completed software will be downloaded to cars, and why does he claim that every Tesla sold has all the necessary hardware for FSD? He may have once said that the Tesla robotaxi network would be wholly owned by Tesla, but when I bought my Model 3 he said that my car would be robotaxi-capable and that I could use it on the Tesla robotaxi network, once the software was ready, if I paid for the "FSD" package.

Tesla is in the business of selling cars, and it's preposterous to say they'd stop selling cars once they have FSD, especially after designing every car they sell to be FSD-capable, and promising FSD to people who pay for it. The market for private cars is orders of magnitude greater than the demand for robotaxi rides. It would be economic suicide to develop FSD and then not sell cars with it. Musk is a businessman and he's not going to leave that kind of profit on the table for other companies to rake in.

 

[qdeathstar]

So then why did he say that Tesla would sell the Model 2 without a steering wheel for $25K?

because, he will, for commercial users only though.

For that matter, why is he selling FSD now, with the promise that some day the completed software will be downloaded to cars, and why does he claim that every Tesla sold has all the necessary hardware for FSD?

None of that is true though. He is already if reworking the hardware.

Tesla is in the business of selling cars, and it's preposterous to say they'd stop selling cars once they have FSD, especially after designing every car they sell to be FSD-capable, and promising FSD to people who pay for it.

Selling software is more profitable than selling cars.

 

[daniel]

Why in the world would Tesla refuse to sell cars to consumers? That is utterly preposterous. if you really believe that selling software is more profitable than selling cars, why wouldn't Tesla sell that software to consumers? The software only operates on the cars, so you have to sell the cars in order to sell the software, and no rational business would refuse to sell cars to the largest market: consumers. Businesses make money by meeting demand, and there will be huge consumer demand for FSD once it exists. Once that time comes every car company will have to provide it or go bust, just as they have to provide seat belts and anti-lock brakes today.

Of course it's all moot until they actually have FSD, in ten or twenty or thirty years from now.

A related point: Tesla is not the only company working on FSD. Is Tesla just going to cede the entire consumer market to other companies? Of course not!

 

[qdeathstar]

Why in the world would Tesla refuse to sell cars to consumers? That is utterly preposterous. if you really believe that selling software is more profitable than selling cars, why wouldn't Tesla sell that software to consumers? The software only operates on the cars, so you have to sell the cars in order to sell the software, and no rational business would refuse to sell cars to the largest market: consumers.

No, you don’t. See mobile eye.

Businesses make money by meeting demand, and there will be

!

 

[daniel]

No, you don’t. See mobile eye.

Mobileye is not a car company. Their business model is to develop technology to lease to car companies. Tesla is a car company. Their entire invested plant is factories to build cars (and batteries). They're not going to stop selling cars to the largest segment of the market. And if you think they won't sell FSD to consumers, you're missing the point that they're already selling FSD to consumers now. What they're selling doesn't exist yet, but they are selling it.

Are you saying that once they have FSD for real, they'll refuse to deliver it to all the people who have paid for it? <-- Please answer this question first.

And if they were not going to sell FSD to consumers, they wouldn't be equipping all these cars with the hardware for FSD and promising that all that's lacking is the software.

 

[Revolver3131]

That's an incredibly insulting, offensive, and frankly stupid thing to say. My wife earns over $230k a year and drives a 10 year old Elantra that she bought for $15k. You honestly think most people in the $25k price range can't afford a monthly payment and live paycheck to paycheck?

We may enjoy cars, but not everyone cares about vehicles as we do. Some just want basic transportation that costs as little as possible, despite their annual earnings. She doesn't consider her car a status symbol. (and I agree with her 100%)

The only insulting stupid thing here is thinking that the majority of people buying new cars at 25k have anything to do with your 230k wife and her 10yr old Elantra. Cluelessly offended and virtue signaling at that haha, dude you don't even live in the same world most people do.

 

[Lexdysic]

The only insulting stupid thing here is thinking that the majority of people buying new cars at 25k have anything to do with your 230k wife and her 10yr old Elantra. Cluelessly offended and virtue signaling at that haha, dude you don't even live in the same world most people do.

Huh? I believe you missed my point.

 

[EvilNuff]

Even suggesting that a car made in the next decade would not have wheel and pedals is the stupidest thing Elon has ever suggested (by a wide margin).

Even if FSD is complete (years away, the first 90-95% or so is only about half the effort).

Even if legal and insurance issues are resolved (they haven't even been started to be addressed).

You still have situations you *must* manually control the car. What if you want to drive it into a car wash? How about the bay of a repair center to change tires? Etc, etc. Having software buttons to control the car is simply not functional.

 

[JHCCAZ]

Even suggesting that a car made in the next decade would not have wheel and pedals is the stupidest thing Elon has ever suggested (by a wide margin).

Even if FSD is complete (years away, the first 90-95% or so is only about half the effort).

Even if legal and insurance issues are resolved (they haven't even been started to be addressed).

You still have situations you *must* manually control the car. What if you want to drive it into a car wash? How about the bay of a repair center to change tires? Etc, etc. Having software buttons to control the car is simply not functional.

Maybe you're getting a little worked up about the details of something that hasn't been completely explained, and after all it's based on some ruminations on Twitter or whatever. I recall when the yoke was first revealed, there was some discussion that it was partly designed to be able to retract into the dash more cleanly then a traditional wheel.

In any case, here are some other companies to whom you may direct your ire; I suppose none of their engineers have thought this through either. (Or, maybe they have) :

Mercedes-Benz:

GM:

Audi:

Google:

Peugeot:

Volvo:
Volvo 360c concept: No steering wheel, pedals, engine or human driver needed
Toyota and BMW:
BMW unveils car with no steering wheel at Chicago Auto Show

 

[qdeathstar]

Mobileye is not a car company.

your claim was that in order to sell FSD software Tesla needs to sell cars. That is obviously not correct.

Their business model is to develop technology to lease to car companies. Tesla is a car company. Their entire invested plant is factories to build cars (and batteries).

Which could be sold off to other companies.

They're not going to stop selling cars to the largest segment of the market. And if you think they won't sell FSD to consumers, you're missing the point that they're already selling FSD to consumers now.

That doesn’t work. Getting people to pay for research and development until it is perfected.

Are you saying that once they have FSD for real, they'll refuse to deliver it to all the people who have paid for it? <-- Please answer this question first.

The cars aren’t going to last forever. But yes, I think they will deliver fsd to the small portion of people who still have their cars when fsd is released.

And if they were not going to sell FSD to consumers, they wouldn't be equipping all these cars with the hardware for FSD and promising that all that's lacking is the software.

Marketing purposes of course.

 

[daniel]

your claim was that in order to sell FSD software Tesla needs to sell cars. That is obviously not correct.



Which could be sold off to other companies.


That doesn’t work. Getting people to pay for research and development until it is perfected.


The cars aren’t going to last forever. But yes, I think they will deliver fsd to the small portion of people who still have their cars when fsd is released.


Marketing purposes of course.

I guess we pretty much disagree on everything. I think that Tesla will continue to build cars even after they develop real FSD (in a decade or two) and that they will include that FSD in cars of people who pay for the option. Or maybe they'll just include it in all cars and set the price accordingly. They'll also build pickup trucks and 18-wheelers, and they'll keep building batteries for vehicles and homes. Their goal is to make all ground transportation electric. FSD is just one among many technological innovations. It's not going to become their only business.

 

[qdeathstar]

I guess we pretty much disagree on everything. I think that Tesla will continue to build cars even after they develop real FSD (in a decade or two) and that they will include that FSD in cars of people who pay for the option. Or maybe they'll just include it in all cars and set the price accordingly. They'll also build pickup trucks and 18-wheelers, and they'll keep building batteries for vehicles and homes. Their goal is to make all ground transportation electric. FSD is just one among many technological innovations. It's not going to become their only business.

Elon has said himself they don’t want to sell cars.

 

[daniel]

Elon has said himself they don’t want to sell cars.

Elon has said many silly things. I really cannot imagine Tesla suddenly divesting itself of nearly its entire business, giving up its entire revenue stream, just on the hope of an entirely new and speculative business. Not to mention the reaction of stockholders to such an irresponsible plan.

Of course it's all moot until true FSD actually exists, which, IMO, is a decade or two away.

 

[qdeathstar]

Elon has said many silly things. I really cannot imagine Tesla suddenly divesting itself of nearly its entire business, giving up its entire revenue stream, just on the hope of an entirely new and speculative business. Not to mention the reaction of stockholders to such an irresponsible plan.

They would have zero capital cost revenue stream at that point though. And it’s not like their car manufacturing segment would be worth zero. They could easily sell it or spin it off.

It’s only speculative as long as it doesn’t exist.

 

[smogne41]

What would be a zero capital cost revenue stream? Running a robotaxi fleet would sure as heck not be. The infrastructure for continuous cleaning and disinfecting alone would be rather non-trivial. Even with the cameras, those things are gonna get trashed on a regular basis just from the late night bar runs.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

The OP either made it an impossible question to answer or it's a trick question.

The reason is that Elon is all about the Yoke, and not a steering wheel.