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Will they ever make the Model S function like a Powerwall in Australia?

brewster

Member
Sep 6, 2012
465
105
Warrnambool. Vic. Australia
Not sure if this has been discussed before, but Australia is in a unique situation because of electricity prices and plenty of sunshine.

I noticed the BYD e6 all electric, as depicted in the latest 'Fully Charged' video, has the ability to put electricity back into the grid. (Reference at the end of the clip).
Electricity in Australia, England and others can be quite expensive compared to the US and we (UK, AUS) both have 'Peak' and 'Off-peak' whereas I think the US is predominantly cheaper and a flat rate.

Under one scenario and generalising of course, should you have PV; after returning from work, you could put energy back into the grid (after your own consumption), from your Model S from say 6pm - 11pm when most power is used.
This could be energy gathered during off-peak the night before, then when 11pm ticks over, charge the car up again using 'off-peak' - like the Powerwall.

This would have the potential again of reducing 'Peak load' that has already moved from the middle of the day to afternoon because of PV, which then loses its influence; here the Powerwall and/or your electric car, could further reduce peak load.
Hopefully hastening the demise of Coal baseload power.

Maybe this is a case for RHD markets?
I know with the Chevy (Holden) Volt they introduced the 'Hold' mode in UK and Australia before they did in the US, meaning its not unheard of for a car maker to do such things for foreign markets.

Comments?
 

Mark E

Member
Jun 27, 2012
860
176
Sydney NSW
Unlikely. To cover for the time between 6-11pm you'd only really need 5-10kWh unless you have a really heavy load. 2kW continuous is a pretty big draw from just the house - assuming that you move things like pool pumps, dishwashers and dryers to a more sensible time.
The cost of doing it would be better off spent by putting in a power-wall @ 7kWh to cover that time.
 

paulp

Active Member
Jul 23, 2015
3,020
1,417
Adelaide, Australia
Like being off-grid?
No what I meant was, what stops someone filling the model s for free at a supercharger(at tesla's cost), then using that power at home that night.

- - - Updated - - -

Unlikely. To cover for the time between 6-11pm you'd only really need 5-10kWh unless you have a really heavy load. 2kW continuous is a pretty big draw from just the house - assuming that you move things like pool pumps, dishwashers and dryers to a more sensible time.
The cost of doing it would be better off spent by putting in a power-wall @ 7kWh to cover that time.
You are assuming you can use the full capacity of the powerwall, which we can't with the model S
 

Mark E

Member
Jun 27, 2012
860
176
Sydney NSW
You are assuming you can use the full capacity of the powerwall, which we can't with the model S

Not really, just pointing out that a power wall or 2 is a better and much more likely solution. The MS won't be home all of the time to utilise or charge and is designed to charge for driving.

The power wall can be charged for free from solar during the day - when often the car is with you at work.

If you are only looking to run the house from 6-11pm, then you generally don't need a huge amount of power - especially if you aren't running pool pumps, spas, or heating hot water. Each of these can be scheduled for another time.
 

brewster

Member
Sep 6, 2012
465
105
Warrnambool. Vic. Australia
No what I meant was, what stops someone filling the model s for free at a supercharger(at tesla's cost), then using that power at home that night.
Yes it does pose a number of questions, just raised because of the BYD e6 and I thought that a Leaf had been rigged to do similar.
For me I'm 360km from the nearest Supercharger and I think Elon discourages use of the Supercharger for local use. Maybe the mothership could tell that you were not using the Supercharger as intended, which has happened in the US.
I believe almost all retailers already penalise users who have PV, via increased charges, it would be nice to get back at them :) (Except Powershop that I know of - who I have recently joined).

http://ecowatch.com/2015/03/06/nissan-ev-drivers-sell-power-to-grid/
 
Last edited:

gizmonty

Member
Feb 25, 2014
229
19
Melbourne, Australia
Using the Model S as a home battery would involve a lot of additional cycling of the battery (possibly an extra 365 times a year!). I can't imagine this will be good for the lifespan of the battery. Given the cost of a replacement at this time I suspect it would ultimately be a profoundly uneconomic thing to do. As Tesla are giving the batteries an 8 year warranty this could also lead to warranty claims against them so I can't imagine they would ever allow it.
 

Scotty

Member
Dec 4, 2014
133
3
Lodi, CA
While I'm not sure if Tesla's outside the US would have a different rulebook, I do know it would require some work to accomplish the delivery of power out of the pack.

The biggest problem that I see, is the statement in the ESA, under exclusions, which states "Negligence, misuse or abuse, such as carrying passengers and cargo, exceeding specified load limits or otherwise overloading the Vehicle or using the Vehicle as a stationary power source,..."

If it's an exclusion under the ESA, I'm pretty sure it would be a problem under the vehicle warranty.

Scotty
 

brewster

Member
Sep 6, 2012
465
105
Warrnambool. Vic. Australia
Using the Model S as a home battery would involve a lot of additional cycling of the battery (possibly an extra 365 times a year!). I can't imagine this will be good for the lifespan of the battery. Given the cost of a replacement at this time I suspect it would ultimately be a profoundly uneconomic thing to do. As Tesla are giving the batteries an 8 year warranty this could also lead to warranty claims against them so I can't imagine they would ever allow it.

Everyone's use of their car is probably different and in my case I only travel typically <10km / day yet travel ~20,000km / year (trips). If I was to put battery charge back into the grid say 10kwh that is equivalent to about 50km a day and probably more gently than typical driving, let alone 'Insane' launches.
So in my case I would only be using the equivalent of ~60km / day and don't see that as stressing the battery more than a typical use of 60km driving per day. Or am I missing something?


While I'm not sure if Tesla's outside the US would have a different rulebook, I do know it would require some work to accomplish the delivery of power out of the pack.

The biggest problem that I see, is the statement in the ESA, under exclusions, which states "Negligence, misuse or abuse, such as carrying passengers and cargo, exceeding specified load limits or otherwise overloading the Vehicle or using the Vehicle as a stationary power source,..."

If it's an exclusion under the ESA, I'm pretty sure it would be a problem under the vehicle warranty.

Scotty

If this is the case then 'NO' to my original question, thanks Scotty!
 

timpoo

Member
Mar 30, 2014
844
50
Melbourne, Australia
The topic of Vehicle to Grid or Vehicle to Home, which is what you're talking about Brewster, has been kicked around for quite a while now with various degrees of seriousness.

It comes from a time when batteries were extremely expensive, and people thought, well here's a car with a huge battery pack, let's use it.

I personally think it has application in very limited circumstances (eg emergency response). Nissan, for example, are only testing it in relation to emergencies after the nuclear crisis.

With battery prices coming down dramatically, and continuing to do so, I think we leave our cars as cars and get stationary storage for storing solar. There's no practical finance model for arbitraging peak/off peak rates at the moment, so storing your solar is probably the only real application.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,766
7,979
Maine
The topic of Vehicle to Grid or Vehicle to Home, which is what you're talking about Brewster, has been kicked around for quite a while now with various degrees of seriousness.

It comes from a time when batteries were extremely expensive, and people thought, well here's a car with a huge battery pack, let's use it.

I personally think it has application in very limited circumstances (eg emergency response). Nissan, for example, are only testing it in relation to emergencies after the nuclear crisis.

With battery prices coming down dramatically, and continuing to do so, I think we leave our cars as cars and get stationary storage for storing solar. There's no practical finance model for arbitraging peak/off peak rates at the moment, so storing your solar is probably the only real application.

This. Therefore "No".

If you want something to Tesla to act as a Powerwall, Tesla will be keen to sell you a Powerwall.
 

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