Winter Driver: Extremely hazardous

[smuseby]

One more thought: when I park a car in freezing conditions, I always lift the wipers so they won't freeze to the windshield. This is not possible with my S.

 

[Peteski]

• I use -15F window washer fluid. The issue was that the nozzles were iced up.
• The gap between the windshield and hood was solid ice - not packed snow, ice. The wiper blades were covered with ice and entirely ineffective.

the sub-zero package struck me as overkill for California and the occasional trip to the mountains. The snow storm last week was very unusual..

You are still contradicting yourself as those issues are the things that the sub-zero package specifically addresses. You might not need it for 99% of your driving, but it's the 1% of dangerous situations like this that makes it worth paying for. The "occasional" trip to the mountains doesn't mean that the conditions you may face are going to be any less dangerous than someone who travels up there frequently. I presume you had winter tyres fitted or chains, even though you probably don't need those either for most of the time.

 

[KArnold]

When was AM dropped? I have it on my '17 MS.

 

[R8M3MS]

Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful replies. Below are a few more details:

• I've been driving in ice and snow for about 50 years, having lived in New Hampshire, Connecticut and owning a house in Tahoe for 30 years. The traction on the Tesla was great - nothing but praise there. My issues were all related to poor visibility and no access to the user manual and AM radio
• I traveled to Tahoe on last Thursday, before all the CHP messages above. As for I80, it was closed for 24 hours.
• I use -15F window washer fluid. The issue was that the nozzles were iced up.
• The gap between the windshield and hood was solid ice - not packed snow, ice. The wiper blades were covered with ice and entirely ineffective. I couldn't pull to the side of the road because not only is it two lanes, the shoulder was covered with mounds of snow, not to mention cars with crappy tires and incompetent drivers: pulling over was dangerous.
• IMO, covering the camera wouldn't help - a little squirt of washer fluid would eliminate foggy and wash of road crud. I wanted to know what was happening behind me - the road is full of tailgating idiots, and I pull over to let them pass.
• I'm glad Tesla now includes some of the features as standard. Not living in Minnesota or Finland, the sub-zero package struck me as overkill for California and the occasional trip to the mountains. The snow storm last week was very unusual.

Am I the only person who finds the lack of the owners manual in local memory, and no AM radio a serious issue? We were stopped for 2 hours, and moving slowly for another 90 minutes. For most of that time, we had no idea what the conditions were - access to the emergency AM radio station could have been helpful. Why would any company make cars without AM radios? Pretty basic feature. Same thinking for the users manual. During this memorable trip, I was entirely focused trying to drive with visibility through little peepholes on the windshield, while I was trying to get my wife (who is a little fumbly when it comes to computers) to work the heater and radio. It was not a great spousal moment.

Sounds like a frustrating trip. I have been in similar situations but not with the Tesla. For the next time put the defroster on red as soon as there is any buildup of snow and keep it there. Do not use the wipers too fast as they will often just spread a thin film of easily freezeable water that has just melted from the defroster. Use just intermittent wipers that you push to wipe as necessary. With the defroster on red the car may get unbearably hot but you can always crack a window to cool down a bit.

 

[realvvk]

Weird, I have never had any issues like this. Not sure what people mean by putting defroster on red but if I select "up arrow" on the climate control screen and set the fan at 3 or 4 and the temperature at 79, the windshield clears immediately and stays clear of ice. And 29'F is pretty warm, hard to imagine any issues at such warm temperature. We have had temps down to 0'F and no issues with ice build up.

 

[aesculus]

To be fair to the OP the storm he was caught in was a mixture of snow and freezing rain at the altitudes he was probably waiting at and then got colder and more snow as the weekend progressed. As the CHP pointed out, it was a mess. These changing conditions really exacerbated what is already a difficult situation especially with the large amount of out of the area travelers you will get on a long holiday weekend.

My MX, that has the sub zero package, has experienced these type of conditions too when we have very wet snow and the freeze level is constantly changing. I live in the general area and drive up the hill to Tahoe about 50 times a year in the winter.

I am surprised he didn't mention the latest issue delivered with 48 that is changing the the air circulation, vents and A/C settings based on temperature when set to Auto. I have had my windshield fogging almost constantly when the temps are cold and the humidity is high which never occurred before V9. Some have reported the inside of their windshield freezing too when temps are in the sub zero F area.

 

[JRMW]

@smuseby
Ignore the people slamming you

This forum is filled with people who defend Tesla and blame the consumer

When I first joined I found it humorous when San Franciscans told Minnesotans that RWD was just fine in winter. While Inwatched my partners Tesla get stuck in 4 inches of snow.

I love my 2016 S

But it has significant downsides in winter. Anyone who says it’s the best winter car they’ve ever had... has never had a car made for winter.

I live in Minneapolis. We’ve had the snowiest February ever. My wipers do the same thing. They freeze up pretty quickly. There is no auto wipers. So they ice up and make a clacking sound and smear ice all over. So I stop and get out and run my hand along them every 20-30 minutes or so. (I obviously have snow package. It is under powered)

The inability to raise the wipers is a huge issue, but remember Tesla is a Californian company making cars primarily for California. (Hence Falcon wing doors)

The biggest winter issue with the S isn’t as you state. The biggest issue is the clearance. In a 1 foot plus snowstorm the car drags in the ground and front grill literally plows the snow. That’s probably not good.

The other issue: If you run the heat, the windows fog. If you run the “red” defroster, it isn’t strong enough to keep car warm if it’s 20 or lower. So you gotta toggle between heat and defrost.

All that said, the car is amazing. What other sports car can even drive in the snow, period?
Answer, none

Thus: love your car for what it is. A high powered spirts car that has the ability to seat 5 and manage most of what winter throws at it. Amazing.

And take its deficiencies in stride. Or sell it.

I love my car even though it’s about 50% of my SUV in winter. But it’s 100x more fun

 

[StealthP3D]

During this memorable trip, I was entirely focused trying to drive with visibility through little peepholes on the windshield, while I was trying to get my wife (who is a little fumbly when it comes to computers) to work the heater and radio. It was not a great spousal moment.

I'm sorry you had a rough drive in a winter storm. At first I thought the nut was in the driver's seat but it's reassuring to know you had help.

I've been in winter storms where it was tough to keep the windshield from icing and that was in a Volvo with proper winshield fluid laced with de-icers and a fully warmed engine (which takes time). My Model 3 has been through numerous winter storms with nary an issue and the defrost is hot within a minute. I do pre-heat the cabin before I leave to warm up the windshield.

I'm especially impressed with the traction and stability control on ice. The way the car maintains directional control on icy corners is exemplary. I don't know if the Model S is as good but I've seen mostly praise for it.

If someone is in a winter storm in a GMC and has icing problems, they blame it on how nasty the storm is. In a Tesla they blame it on the car.

 

[StealthP3D]

When I first joined I found it humorous when San Franciscans told Minnesotans that RWD was just fine in winter. While Inwatched my partners Tesla get stuck in 4 inches of snow.

If an individual is "talented" enough, they can get any car stuck in four inches of snow. Either they did something really stupid or they didn't have winter tires (or both). I've seen big 4x4 trucks stuck in a flat gravel parking lot because it was iced over and it had potholes.

I love my 2016 S

But it has significant downsides in winter. Anyone who says it’s the best winter car they’ve ever had... has never had a car made for winter.

I've had two Volvos in my driving lifetime, both were better winter cars than any of my previous cars. The Model 3 is better in the winter than either Volvo. So, what's a car made for winter? I thought Volvo's were pretty good. Is there some Russian car that excels?

All that said, the car is amazing. What other sports car can even drive in the snow, period?
Answer, none

If the Model S is a "sports car" than so is my Tesla P3D! And, yes, it's the best car in winter driving conditions I've ever driven. It's low center of gravity, excellent icy road handling and instant, powerful heater/defroster/rear defroster make it a winner.

 

[Peteski]

@smuseby

This forum is filled with people who defend Tesla and blame the consumer

There are no shortage of complainers too! No car is perfect and neither are their owners. I'm sure some of the OP's comments are valid points, while others are just lack of experience with the car and the compromise of not choosing the sub-zero pack.

 

[JRMW]

“If an individual is "talented" enough, they can get any car stuck in four inches of snow. Either they did something really stupid or they didn't have winter tires (or both).”

We are Minnesotans. We understand how to drive in winter. Read some of my historical posts about winter tires, and then tell me if we had winters on. (Duh)

Way to prove my point by the way.

For the most part an AWD Tesla with winter tires does very well in winter
The S is awesome. Just not “the best winter car ever made”
My AWD Passat and Subaru as well as Lexus SUV were all better than my S IN WINTER
But I’d still never go back to another ICE

It’s an amazing car. Amazing. With some deficiencies especially when it comes to winter. Not a surprise because it is a SPORTS CAR!

It’s not the best winter car, or off roader, or airplane
That does not detract from the fact that it’s the best overall car on the market

So please stop blaming the customer if they point out that Tesla might not be the best in every class, and every function

On a side note, the frameless windows are also bad in winter
They freeze to the door frame
I’m worried my window will break when I open the door
Once I could not get my door to fully close because the window was stuck in fully up position

 

[Cycle11111]

We have two Teslas and live in Truckee CA - M3 and MX - granted both have “cold weather packages” as std. Many new BMWs no longer have AM tuners so not uncommon. My last Mercedes had a back camera but no cleaner either and I just sold a 3 year Sonata and the same - that would be nice agree but I think it is not that common yet, but agree it would be awesome. I have driven up and down 80 and 50 this winter through storms and chain controls in both cars and they performed very well and the windows stayed clear but you do need to have the correct washer fluid (strongest temp rating you can find or it is useless) plus an extra bottle. Also on the conditions last weekend and the weekend before I watched like a hawk on when I tackled the hill - if it is not flowing - ie holds etc don’t drive it or a 100miles will take you 10hours. Also I have the manuals downloaded on my phone as offline capable PDFs for the very reason you mentioned. I don’t want the big paper copies - you can’t search them and they take up tons of room - my last 3 or 4 cars I have done the same thing and left the big paper copies at home and kept electronic ones only.

 

[Cycle11111]

My former S and current X have been fine for the 7 Canadian winters I've been driving them except for one annoyance: The wipers cannot be lifted and left elevated from the glass to prevent freezing and to facilitate cleaning out the gap where the normally sit between the hood and glass. I know there are many articles/posts saying don't do this, but I call BS on that. It is very common to see and I had been doing so for over 40 years with no problem.
View attachment 379967

Totally agree with this - everyone raises up their wipers in the Sierras. I have bought a window cover that I use if our cars are outside and the weather is sketchy - awesome. In fact better than lifting wipers, but you have to have it with you and remember to put it on.

 

[mswlogo]

Actually around 30F can sometimes be the worst conditions because it can be raining or wet snow and it freezes on contact.

When it’s below 0F it often does not even precipitate at all, and if it does it’s very dry and just blows off.

Maybe sub zero means Sub Zero Centigrade

I would have DEFINITELY bought the sub zero package if I ever expected to drive NEAR freezing temps. No brainer. Doesn’t that also include a heated steering wheel. I would have got it probably even for resale value reasons. The “option” is there for folks that live on the equator.

You spent $100,000 and skipped that?

It also sounds like the OP didn’t know about the defog vs defrost (blue vs red). Sometimes in these situations, once you fall too far behind on ice build up, it’s hard to recover. If he ran blue for a while and then switched to red it could take a good while to recover.

I wonder if some parts of subzero option could be retrofitted.

 

[StealthP3D]

On a side note, the frameless windows are also bad in winter
They freeze to the door frame
I’m worried my window will break when I open the door
Once I could not get my door to fully close because the window was stuck in fully up position

Give me a break! All cars use the same type of rubber door seal regardless of whether the window is framed or frameless. And plenty of cars have frameless windows. I put Gummi Pflege on my door seals and haven't had any problem with stuck seals:

https://www.amazon.com/nextzett-914...&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spons&tag=googhydr-20&psc=1

Now before you say, "You don't have a Minnesota winter" I will point out that where I've been using the car is actually more problematic than Minnesota for freezing seals because we more commonly get rain or melt followed by arctic or mountain air overnight. These are the exact conditions (wet then cold) that is most problematic for frozen doors or windows. It happens to all cars around here but the Model 3 has actually been better than average and the windows haven't been sticking to the perimeter seals since I applied the Gummi Pflege. Certainly, as a Minnesotan, you should know that motorists operating in a severe climate need to maintain their cars for winter?

Finally, the ultimate solution for an ice-encrusted car:

So forgive me if you think I'm defending the car. Because it's the best car I've ever used in the winter. Both from the perspective of driving dynamics and ease of use/comfort. And no more stinky cold start smells. Nothing is more distasteful on a crisp, cold morning with fresh air that clears your nostrils than a big whiff of toxic gasses going into your lungs.

 

[skitown]

Give me a break! All cars use the same type of rubber door seal regardless of whether the window is framed or frameless. And plenty of cars have frameless windows. I put Gummi Pflege on my door seals and haven't had any problem with stuck seals

+1 on the Gummi Pflege here in ski country. Wish I'd known about it when my Subaru door seals were tearing off my doors sticking to the frozen car frame years ago.

 

[rhumbliner]

On a side note, the frameless windows are also bad in winter
They freeze to the door frame
I’m worried my window will break when I open the door
Once I could not get my door to fully close because the window was stuck in fully up position

My Audi TT had the exact same problem. The only solution Audi could provide was to sell me a spray bottle of window antifreeze. I still use that stuff on my S.

 

[StealthP3D]

My Audi TT had the exact same problem. The only solution Audi could provide was to sell me a spray bottle of window antifreeze. I still use that stuff on my S.

I think there is a principle operating here.

If you have a severe weather problem with a "normal" car, like a Toyota or Ford or GMC, you think it's a "severe weather" problem because the car is "normal".

If you have a severe weather problem with a "special" car, like a Tesla, you think the problem is with the car, because it's a "special" car.

Feel free to insert "Made in California", as if the place of manufacture has anything to do with it. The worse case of ice encrustation I had was with my Volvo S80. But it was made in Gothberg, Sweden. The place of manufacture has nothing to do with ice encrustation. It's about the weather and how well you maintain your door seals for winter.

But people love to blame it on the car because, well, it's a Tesla.

 

[Raechris]

One more thought: when I park a car in freezing conditions, I always lift the wipers so they won't freeze to the windshield. This is not possible with my S.

I disagree because this is wrong and it seems you should know more about the vehicle so you are prepared for the unexpected. In car settings - service is a wiper service mode that does raise wipers. The colors for your front windshield climate button are Blue for AC (for fogging due to interior moisture) and Orange for heat due to winter weather. It takes the heater a couple minutes to warm up and will initially blow cool air.

 

[JRMW]

@StealthP3D

My other cars had issues in the winter too
However, when the windows froze (and they did) they froze to the window frame
Thus, you could still open the door by pulling on it hard
Or by using alcohol and an ice pick and a scraper

With the Frameless window, the window freezes to the frame of the car.
Thus I’m nervous that pulling hard will break the window

Dude I say this respectfully
You’re from Washington
I’m a San Franciscan who has lived in Seattle, and now Minneapolis

Your pathetic Washington winters are NOTHING like Minnesota, where our HIGH temp might be minus 10 for a week
We might not hit 30 degrees for MONTHS
We were minus 25 air temp, minus 50 wind chill for days last month

So Spare me your worldly knowledge.
You don’t know crap about me, or what I’ve done
You know nothing about MN winters either

I am an extremely intelligent person who has attended the absolute best institutions in the world
I am using all of your recommendations
I’m not some dumb ass that needs to be “taught” how to manage in winter

The problem:
It’s so cold here that your eyeballs freeze. Literally
We have been pounded by snow. It is unrelenting

My S has done an admirable job
As I said, it’s the best all around car on the market
By leaps and bounds
It is 10x better than I thought it could be

But it is NOT the best winter car ever. Which is fine
Because it’s AMAZING

So please, just stop
You’re embarrassing yourself

Lastly, before you give me another suggestion
Yes, I’d LOVE to preheat my car some more.
In fact, I always preheat my car for 10 minutes to 15 minutes

But when it gets super cold (minus 10) it saps too much energy
When it was minus 25 I had about 60 miles of real world range.
Yes, it was that bad
My car could not reach 55 degrees.