Winter Driver: Extremely hazardous

[pdq]

Last week, I drove from the SF Bay Area to Lake Tahoe. Above 5000 feet, it was snowing (heavy flurries), snow on the surface, temperature 29-31F, on a two lane highway (US50).
We stopped for 2 hours while an avalanche was cleared, and then resumed travel in the dark. Soon, the road was barely visible through our iced windshield, with occasional white-outs from blown snow. I was reluctant to scrape the windshield due to concerns that I would be hit by a sliding vehicle, but when I was able to scrape it, it quickly frosted again.


smuseby:

You should have your car checked by Tesla. In my 2015 P90D I had the heated seats and it wasn't until I drove a loaner car 8 months prior to the end of my lease in winter that I realized that I had zero heat. The seats in the loaner car almost roasted my butt when on high. This was discovered in January of last year and couldn't be repaired, instead it required replacing the entire drivers seat. 4 months later when I decided to turn the car in prior to the lease expiring, they still hadn't found a replacement seat. The wiring harness for the airbag system also failed, so your stuff not working may be related to electrical problems.

I don't know if it's of common practice, but here in Philadelphia where we can often get temps in the single digits it is routine practice to use windshield washer fluid that has antifreeze that's good to -20F, else your windshield washer system will freeze solid. This may have been mentioned by someone else.

pdq

 

[Newscutter]

Question: Where are the controls for the heated wiper rests and rearview mirrors in V9? I remember being able to individually toggle them on/off in prior software versions but don't see those options anymore. Are they rolled into the heated (red) defroster button or something else now?

 

[mongo]

Question: Where are the controls for the heated wiper rests and rearview mirrors in V9? I remember being able to individually toggle them on/off in prior software versions but don't see those options anymore. Are they rolled into the heated (red) defroster button or something else now?

From S manual 2018.48.12 December 17, 2018

If Model S is equipped with the optional cold weather package, you can de-ice wipers by touching the climate control on the touchscreen (see Climate Controls on page 116). Wiper heaters automatically turns off after 15 minutes.

Which says:

Note: If Model S is equipped with rear seat heaters and/or the optional subzero weather package, you can also control seat heaters in the rear seats, heated wipers, and heated steering wheel by touching the fan icon then touching the seat tab.

Edit also:

De-icing Washer Nozzles
If Model S is equipped with the optional cold weather package, washer nozzles have deicers that turn on whenever the ambient temperature nears freezing, or when you turn on the heated wipers (see Climate Controls on page 116). The washer de-icers turn off when the heated wipers turn off (after 15 minutes), provided the temperature is warm enough to prevent freezing.

 

[BrokerDon]

Are you aware that the type of windshield fluid available for sale in the Bay Area and other low elevations in California (and provided with new vehicles) is not capable of preventing freeze-up when traveling in the more extreme environment of the mountains in California?

From CARB’s web site: Freezing Temperatures: Selecting Effective Windshield Washer Fluid :


You can buy working anti-freeze windshield fluid from stores in the Tahoe area (as I do) or, I believe, online.

This is almost assuredly the problem. California's Air Resources Board (a.k.a. "CARB") prohibits windshield washer fluid (and paints, stains, etc.) from containing high VOC which prohibits their sale in CA. We had the same problem in our 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee with a "winter package": the windshield washer fluid FROZE onto our windshield in Colorado Rockies in moderately freezing temperatures. Simple solution was to buy windshield washer fluid outside of CA that won't freeze until -27ºF instead of the CA mandated +32ºF crap.

You may also be able to buy a windshield washer fluid booster to lower the freezing temperature of your windshield washer fluid... but if you're going to go to freezing temperatures just bu -27ºF windshield washer fluid out of state and stop using the useless below +32ºF crap.

Worked for us on 4 Jeeps over 30+ years. Not a Tesla problem... CA CARB created problem + Driver education issue.

 

[StealthP3D]

You may also be able to buy a windshield washer fluid booster to lower the freezing temperature of your windshield washer fluid... but if you're going to go to freezing temperatures just bu -27ºF windshield washer fluid out of state and stop using the useless below +32ºF crap.

Worked for us on 4 Jeeps over 30+ years. Not a Tesla problem... CA CARB created problem + Driver education issue.

If CA mandates +32F crap, then why does the OEM washer fluid in my P3D manufactured in CA still flow after sitting outside in 10 degrees F weather all night? Shouldn't it be frozen solid?

 

[mongo]

@BrokerDon

If CA mandates +32F crap, then why does the OEM washer fluid in my P3D manufactured in CA still flow after sitting outside in 10 degrees F weather all night? Shouldn't it be frozen solid?

It varies by location:

Pre-mixed AWWF that is typically sold in gallon-size containers labeled "winter formula", "protects to zero degrees," or something similar. The regulation for this type is 25% VOC content, and it is only allowed to be sold in Type "A" areas of California.

from:
Consumer Products Regulation Affecting Automotive Windshield Washer Fluid

 

[bpjod]

Last week, I drove from the SF Bay Area to Lake Tahoe. Above 5000 feet, it was snowing (heavy flurries), snow on the surface, temperature 29-31F, on a two lane highway (US50).
We stopped for 2 hours while an avalanche was cleared, and then resumed travel in the dark. Soon, the road was barely visible through our iced windshield, with occasional white-outs from blown snow. I was reluctant to scrape the windshield due to concerns that I would be hit by a sliding vehicle, but when I was able to scrape it, it quickly frosted again.
While the traction was superb, there are serious Model S winter driving shortcomings:

• The front windshield defroster is grossly underpowered, inadequate to keep ice from forming, and it was barely freezing
• There are no heaters at the base of the windshield to keep the wiper blades from freezing
• There are no heaters to keep the windshield spray nozzles free of ice
• There is no wiper blade or spray nozzle to clear the rear windshield
• There is no spray nozzle to clear the rear camera
• Because I was unclear as to the meaning of the blue vs orange indicator on the front windshield defroster, I discovered there is no Tesla User Manual when there is no cell service
• Without internet access, when I attempted to tune into an AM station for road conditions, I discovered that there is no AM radio

I drove slowly, peering through 2 to 3 inch gaps in the frozen windshield. When we finally arrived at Lake Tahoe, I spoke with a Model X driver at a super charger who reported a similar issues. It was an absolutely terrifying experience which we survived. With a couple of exceptions, I would expect these features on any modern automobile, and certainly all of them on a car costing $100,000.

I'm too lazy to read all the replies, probably everything's already been replied to. I've been driving for 35 years in a region where we have 2 seasons: winter and July, and I remember twice having snow in July. Plenty of winter driving experience in all manner of vehicles.

To defrost: turn off recirc. As you exhale, you add moisture to the air. With recirc on the humidity level in the vehicle increases, then condenses and freezes on the inside of the windshield. Instead have fresh air coming in (rather than recirc), turn the heat up, turn the fan to high and direct ALL the air to the front window. I believe the same is accomplished by turning the front defrost button to red (it does on the Model 3). Once the front windshield is clear, then you can switch to cooler air, lower fan speed, directing some to your feet or whatever you want, but keep enough air going to the front windshield to keep it from fogging up.
Winshield wiper heaters: I had these on a Subaru once. Dreadful things. Melted the snow where they were, but created a zone of melted snow that turned to ice around them that then made the wipers skip and streak. Only tried them a couple of times and gave up. Never found a need for them.
Washer fluid: Have never had nozzle heaters. Didn't even know that was a thing. Just use the appropriate washer fluid. Around here that's washer fluid rated for -40 deg C/F
Rear camera: I drove 34 years without one*. I like the one in my Model 3, but it's hardly necessary. Turn your head. Use your mirrors. Roll down the window and stick your head out if you must.
* - My Volt has one but it's useless, even when clean so I don't think it counts.
Rear windshield wiper: wagons, SUVs and some hatchbacks do have rear wipers. For a near vertical rear window they're pretty much necessary because of the backdraft sucking all the muddy spray onto the rear windshield. Not sure if it's necessary on the Model S which is halfway between a hatchback and sedan. Nevertheless, it's fine driving without a rear window to look through - that's what side mirrors are for. Any vehicle with a rear hatch/truckbed filled with stuff or pulling a trailer can't use the rear window and those drivers get by just fine.
Blue vs. Red defrost: On my Model 3, the difference is pretty obvious. Red kicks the fan to high and the temp in the car to HIGH. Blue doesn't. Obviously Red is a more serious defroster. I don't need a manual to tell me that.
Lack of access to manual when out of cell territory: Not that I've needed it, but I do have a PDF of the manual saved to my phone as reading a manual inside my home is more comfortable than reading it in the car on the centre screen. Consider trying that in the future.
No AM radio: Not sure what to say here. Yes, it's lacking an AM radio (there are many AM stations on Tune In), but I've never used a radio to find out road conditions. I just drive to the conditions or don't go out if it's obviously a dreadful winter storm. These days I can check the road conditions on the web if needed.​

The Model 3 is the best winter vehicle I've had other than ground clearance compared to an SUV. I've talked to owners of Model S cars around here and they say the same. This feels like a case of blaming the tool for operator error.

 

[JamesS]

• The front windshield defroster is grossly underpowered, inadequate to keep ice from forming, and it was barely freezing

Were you driving with Range Mode active? If so, Range Mode might be responsible for the problems you were experiencing with the heating capacity of car's HVAC system. Range Mode reduces the max power levels available to the heaters. I've noticed that the effect is fairly pronounced. You can find the Range Mode setting under "Driving", and it can be easily de-actived on the fly during difficult conditions, and re-activated later.

 

[JamesS]

My former S and current X have been fine for the 7 Canadian winters I've been driving them except for one annoyance: The wipers cannot be lifted and left elevated from the glass to prevent freezing and to facilitate cleaning out the gap where the normally sit between the hood and glass. I know there are many articles/posts saying don't do this, but I call BS on that. It is very common to see and I had been doing so for over 40 years with no problem.

I've got the same concern, and solve this by putting the wipers in Service Mode, which raises them up about half way through a sweep cycle. This allows me to clear the wiper trough the next morning. I precondition the car to melt the windshield ice to avoid all that scraping which would otherwise put micro-scratches on the windshield.

 

[pacmanbrodude]

• The front windshield defroster is grossly underpowered, inadequate to keep ice from forming, and it was barely freezing

• Because I was unclear as to the meaning of the blue vs orange indicator on the front windshield defroster, I discovered there is no Tesla User Manual when there is no cell service

I have to assume that you were using the windshield defroster wrong, and were blowing COLD air onto your windshield rather than warm.

 

[dknieriemen]

Last week, I drove from the SF Bay Area to Lake Tahoe. Above 5000 feet, it was snowing (heavy flurries), snow on the surface, temperature 29-31F, on a two lane highway (US50).
We stopped for 2 hours while an avalanche was cleared, and then resumed travel in the dark. Soon, the road was barely visible through our iced windshield, with occasional white-outs from blown snow. I was reluctant to scrape the windshield due to concerns that I would be hit by a sliding vehicle, but when I was able to scrape it, it quickly frosted again.
While the traction was superb, there are serious Model S winter driving shortcomings:

• The front windshield defroster is grossly underpowered, inadequate to keep ice from forming, and it was barely freezing
• There are no heaters at the base of the windshield to keep the wiper blades from freezing
• There are no heaters to keep the windshield spray nozzles free of ice
• There is no wiper blade or spray nozzle to clear the rear windshield
• There is no spray nozzle to clear the rear camera
• Because I was unclear as to the meaning of the blue vs orange indicator on the front windshield defroster, I discovered there is no Tesla User Manual when there is no cell service
• Without internet access, when I attempted to tune into an AM station for road conditions, I discovered that there is no AM radio

I drove slowly, peering through 2 to 3 inch gaps in the frozen windshield. When we finally arrived at Lake Tahoe, I spoke with a Model X driver at a super charger who reported a similar issues. It was an absolutely terrifying experience which we survived. With a couple of exceptions, I would expect these features on any modern automobile, and certainly all of them on a car costing $100,000.

Try speaking from an informed position and not just one trip from sunny California. Spending some time in Norway, with the people who understand Tesla in cold weather, might help you.

 

[neroden]

While the traction was superb, there are serious Model S winter driving shortcomings:

• The front windshield defroster is grossly underpowered, inadequate to keep ice from forming, and it was barely freezing

*Sigh* what year's your car? Do you have the airflow directional vents which were retrofitted during 2013/2014 *but only to cars in cold weather areas*? If you don't, the defroster won't work. If you have a pretty, flat dash without airflow vents on the top, this is a known problem. If you have the retrofit, the defroster should work and does (I've driven through similar weather, like, most every winter since 2013)

This was a critical issue, but it was addressed by the vent retrofit. Is your car old enough that it doesn't have it?

I see that your car is apparently only a year old and so the vents are presumably present. If so, you have simply set your defroster wrong -- user error. You have to direct all the air to the windshield and you have to turn the temperature up manually.

Also, turn on the electric rear window defroster.

• There are no heaters at the base of the windshield to keep the wiper blades from freezing
• There are no heaters to keep the windshield spray nozzles free of ice
• There is no wiper blade or spray nozzle to clear the rear windshield
• There is no spray nozzle to clear the rear camera

These are all normal for most cars and if you'd ever driven through winter before you'd know how to deal with them.

Without internet access, when I attempted to tune into an AM station for road conditions, I discovered that there is no AM radio

Yeah, that's irritating.

 

[neroden]

Why would any company make cars without AM radios? Pretty basic feature.

Requires an entirely separate set of hardware. AM radios are becoming uncommon.

 

[neroden]

My former S and current X have been fine for the 7 Canadian winters I've been driving them except for one annoyance: The wipers cannot be lifted and left elevated from the glass to prevent freezing and to facilitate cleaning out the gap where the normally sit between the hood and glass. I know there are many articles/posts saying don't do this, but I call BS on that. It is very common to see and I had been doing so for over 40 years with no problem.
View attachment 379967

"Service Mode" will jog them up enough to do that. I forget which update it was added in.

 

[neroden]

I did - and so did the Model X.
When I placed my hand at the base of the windshield, the defrost air was barely warm - entirely ineffective. I set the defroster on both the orange and blue settings, with no discernible difference.We also experimented with manual settings: max fan, upper vents only. Nothing worked.

High temp, max fan, windshield only *should* work. Was your heater simply broken? Get that looked into.

 

[neroden]

I am surprised he didn't mention the latest issue delivered with 48 that is changing the the air circulation, vents and A/C settings based on temperature when set to Auto. I have had my windshield fogging almost constantly when the temps are cold and the humidity is high which never occurred before V9. Some have reported the inside of their windshield freezing too when temps are in the sub zero F area.

Auto doesn't work, always use manual

 

[neroden]

The biggest winter issue with the S isn’t as you state. The biggest issue is the clearance. In a 1 foot plus snowstorm the car drags in the ground and front grill literally plows the snow. That’s probably not good.

Oh yeah.

The other issue: If you run the heat, the windows fog. If you run the “red” defroster, it isn’t strong enough to keep car warm if it’s 20 or lower. So you gotta toggle between heat and defrost.

What I found in the ice storm I drove through, was, heat, outside air only, max fan, all on windshield, crack a back window. Wildly energy-inefficient, but worked.

 

[neroden]

@StealthP3D

My other cars had issues in the winter too
However, when the windows froze (and they did) they froze to the window frame
Thus, you could still open the door by pulling on it hard
Or by using alcohol and an ice pick and a scraper

With the Frameless window, the window freezes to the frame of the car.
Thus I’m nervous that pulling hard will break the window

When my car was returned from service recently, all the windows and doors had frozen shut during the 5-hour enclosed transport. The delivery guy didn't know how to get into the car.

I climbed in through the trunk. The power liftgate on the trunk is damn strong and it still opened. Then I turned the heat on inside and melted the car out. Just a tip.

 

[Shock-On-T]

Correct - I didn't purchase that package. However, 29F is nowhere near 'sub-zero'.

Sub-zero refers to below 0 celcius, the freezing point of water.

 

[Shock-On-T]

About eleventy thousand Bay Area pleasure seekers

All hobbits?