Winter driving advice, winter tire choices, etc.

[StealthP3D]

That's exactly what I've done for years; when the seasons changes, I just jack the car up and change the wheels over myself.

Doing this though, have you noticed your tires get out of balance? My last set even started to leak air.

I suppose when this happens I could go get the tires remounted and balanced on the same wheels, but that ends up defeating the purpose of having the second set of wheels in the first place...

Tires that become out-of-balance in the middle of their life are caused by one of three things (or a combination of these factors):

1) Poor manufacturing consistency. This is largely a non-issue with modern, high-quality tires but I'm sure a few marginal ones slip by.
2) Running too low of air pressure. Keep those pressures up, particularly in the winter months!
3) Tires that were poorly balanced to begin with. I always go to a shop that has superior Hunter balancing machine(s).

#3 note: A marginally balanced tire will become more out of balance over it's life. If you feel this developing, take it back to the shop that initially balanced it. All they need to do is remove them and check the balance. They will probably have to move the weights or add a little. They shouldn't have to unmount/remount them.

#2 note: Tires have less pressure rise from driving in the colder winter months. So it is necessary to have higher cold pressures to begin with to compensate for this fact. When you notice the weather getting cooler, you can bet it's past time to add air. And you should inflate about 2 psi higher than in the summer months. Then, when deep winter sets in, you will probably need to add some more air to maintain those higher pressures.

general note: Sometimes a tire will "flat-spot" when parked in cold conditions. This can mimic an out-of-balance condition and is most likely to happen after a fast highway drive when the tires are parked hot. It's also more likely to happen if your tire pressures are too low (because this builds more heat). You can tell the difference between flat-spotting and out-of-balance because the flat-spotting will go away after 5-10 highway miles while an out of balance tire will always seem at least a little out-of-balance.

 

[t-rizzle]

I don't really care what you do with your car, just trying to pass on some information that someone might find useful. I'm also not going to defend papers published by researchers - brush up on your German and go argue with them.

There are dozens of studies on battery degradation that *all* point to cold battery charging causing degradation via lithium plating and Tesla limits cold battery charging as well. It's not a big thing to charge your battery while it is warm, and precondition your car in the morning to warm the battery before you leave, instead of freezing your battery first and then charging it.

I'm out, thanks.

Thanks for all the info. From the information you've provided it sounds like in the winter it's best to plug in and start charging right from when coming in from driving so that the battery is somewhat warm and will keep the battery warm rather than driving in and plugging in but waiting (scheduling charge to start at 3am for example) until a few hours before morning commute when the car has been sitting for several hours and getting cold? If that is the case would it be better, knowing the car will sit in a cold home garage, to plug in when getting home and just turning down the Amp to 5 instead of 32 and having it just charge for 12 hours or just keep it at highest amp setting and letting it take a couple hours to get to desired limit and then turning on heat, from the app, about 30 minutes before heading out after a cold night?

Also, is better to keep cabin / battery preconditioning to a minimum if the car is parked outside all day without being plugged in (like 10-15 minutes) or OK to draw heat from a cold battery for say 30 minutes?

First winter in Denver and this week we had a cold one but looks like we'll be back to sunny and 40-55F over the next two weeks which is normal. I have a dual motor model 3. Thank you.

 

[t-rizzle]

Tires that become out-of-balance in the middle of their life are caused by one of three things (or a combination of these factors):

1) Poor manufacturing consistency. This is largely a non-issue with modern, high-quality tires but I'm sure a few marginal ones slip by.
2) Running too low of air pressure. Keep those pressures up, particularly in the winter months!
3) Tires that were poorly balanced to begin with. I always go to a shop that has superior Hunter balancing machine(s).

#3 note: A marginally balanced tire will become more out of balance over it's life. If you feel this developing, take it back to the shop that initially balanced it. All they need to do is remove them and check the balance. They will probably have to move the weights or add a little. They shouldn't have to unmount/remount them.

#2 note: Tires have less pressure rise from driving in the colder winter months. So it is necessary to have higher cold pressures to begin with to compensate for this fact. When you notice the weather getting cooler, you can bet it's past time to add air. And you should inflate about 2 psi higher than in the summer months. Then, when deep winter sets in, you will probably need to add some more air to maintain those higher pressures.

general note: Sometimes a tire will "flat-spot" when parked in cold conditions. This can mimic an out-of-balance condition and is most likely to happen after a fast highway drive when the tires are parked hot. It's also more likely to happen if your tire pressures are too low (because this builds more heat). You can tell the difference between flat-spotting and out-of-balance because the flat-spotting will go away after 5-10 highway miles while an out of balance tire will always seem at least a little out-of-balance.

Thank you for all the great tire information! I'm thinking I'll take this first Denver winter with my AWD model 3 with the OEM tires and then will get a good set of performance winter tire next year to put on the OEM 18s as I'm looking to get 19 in performance summer tires and wheels in late May. I've had the car since May and have just under 12k on the OEM tires. I will swap them out though if the snow gets crazy in the city but have no plans to drive up into the mountains as we'll use our Toyota Sequoia for those trips since we'd have ski's and gear to contend with. Thanks again.

 

[jdw]

From the information you've provided it sounds like in the winter it's best to plug in and start charging right from when coming in from driving so that the battery is somewhat warm and will keep the battery warm rather than driving in and plugging in but waiting (scheduling charge to start at 3am for example) until a few hours before morning commute when the car has been sitting for several hours and getting cold? If that is the case would it be better, knowing the car will sit in a cold home garage, to plug in when getting home and just turning down the Amp to 5 instead of 32 and having it just charge for 12 hours or just keep it at highest amp setting and letting it take a couple hours to get to desired limit and then turning on heat, from the app, about 30 minutes before heading out after a cold night?

Also, is better to keep cabin / battery preconditioning to a minimum if the car is parked outside all day without being plugged in (like 10-15 minutes) or OK to draw heat from a cold battery for say 30 minutes?

As far as I know, it is better to charge the battery when it is warm(er) in the winter. Long slow charging is inefficient and, probably better to do a regular charge than draw it out as the battery cools. Turning on cabin heat 30 or even 45 minutes minutes before you leave will warm both the cabin and the battery if it is really cold. This makes sense if you are plugged in ... if not plugged in, better to either do a short warm up or just get in and drive as it will use/waste a lot of energy (and battery cycles) to preheat with only the battery.

Personally, I reverse the cycles in summer and winter so that I charge in the morning after the battery has cooled a bit in the summer and in the evening when the battery is still warm in the winter.

 

[Pkatz]

Brand new owner here (actually not-even-owner yet; I pick up my car in 2 weeks).

I am planning to buy a second set of wheels to run studded snow tires (we get a lot of snow & ice where I live).

My car is a non-Performance dual-motor AWD, long-range/extended battery Model 3.

I've done this on every (ICE) car I've owned, but being new to Teslas, I'm sure there will be some things different about it.

A few "known unknowns":
- How does TPMS work in 3rd-party wheels? Do I buy the TPMS sensors from Tesla, or will generic ones work?
- Does a Tesla service center have to install them? I've always changed over my own summer/winter wheels (and I'm familiar with at least some of the concerns about jacking up a Tesla, given the battery), but is this something I can do myself?
- Can any aftermarket 18" wheels & tires be used, or are there considerations that limit options?

Any and all wisdom for this noob would be greatly appreciated.

Congratulations on the purchase of your new Tesla! It’s not just a car, it’s an adventure so I’m sure you’re going to be happy with it.

There are many aftermarket options for tires and wheels. Most come with integrated TPMS sensors and they work fine. Tire rack is one place you can start looking. If you go to their website, put your specific model into their configurator and they will give you all of the possible options for tires and wheels.
There are lots of other third-party options too, but I’d be very careful about who you deal with and research those options carefully. I got burned by going to a smaller provider and ended up with two out of four of my new rims being defective after paying a lot of money for them.

Enjoy!

 

[mswlogo]

Hi all,

So happy to see this thread blossomed with as much information as it has.

I ended up just driving through last winter on the stock all-season tires (and the car handled admirably, with the only exception being when I tried to drive up the very steep driveway to my lake place in Maine that was completely iced over).

For this winter I'm planning on putting on a set of studded snows (I live in NH and split my time between MA, NH, and ME, and studs are legal in all three). I think I'm settling on the Nokian Hakka 8s.

(StealthP3D's comments about how far studless performance winter tires has come are well taken, but my perspective is that in the winter time I don't need to be 'performance' driving, especially given that I'll be driving a fair bit this winter with my newborn in the car. Rather, I'll be driving slowly and cautiously, with the lost traction on dry roads due to the studs more than outweighed by the worst fear of every New England driver, black ice.)

Studded tires in New England are totally overkill. If you want the most aggressive snow get R3's.

 

[Colgate2004]

Tires that become out-of-balance in the middle of their life are caused by one of three things (or a combination of these factors):

1) Poor manufacturing consistency. This is largely a non-issue with modern, high-quality tires but I'm sure a few marginal ones slip by.
2) Running too low of air pressure. Keep those pressures up, particularly in the winter months!
3) Tires that were poorly balanced to begin with. I always go to a shop that has superior Hunter balancing machine(s).

#3 note: A marginally balanced tire will become more out of balance over it's life. If you feel this developing, take it back to the shop that initially balanced it. All they need to do is remove them and check the balance. They will probably have to move the weights or add a little. They shouldn't have to unmount/remount them.

#2 note: Tires have less pressure rise from driving in the colder winter months. So it is necessary to have higher cold pressures to begin with to compensate for this fact. When you notice the weather getting cooler, you can bet it's past time to add air. And you should inflate about 2 psi higher than in the summer months. Then, when deep winter sets in, you will probably need to add some more air to maintain those higher pressures.

general note: Sometimes a tire will "flat-spot" when parked in cold conditions. This can mimic an out-of-balance condition and is most likely to happen after a fast highway drive when the tires are parked hot. It's also more likely to happen if your tire pressures are too low (because this builds more heat). You can tell the difference between flat-spotting and out-of-balance because the flat-spotting will go away after 5-10 highway miles while an out of balance tire will always seem at least a little out-of-balance.

Well, everyone seems to be in agreement that I am behind the times and living in the past with my preference for studded winter tires, so I suppose I'll have to consider studless.

Okay, so what are folks' preferred studless snows?

(FWIW, I'll be splitting my time this winter driving between Maine, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts, primarily in the coastal areas where the temperatures stay relatively mild, 20s-30s F, occasionally dropping into the teens or single digits, but with lots of snow, sleet, and freezing rain, and my priority is on safety (ie, traction) even if it means more noise and mushier handling.)

I've heard people on this thread say Nokian R3s and Michelin X-Ices.
I see Discount Tire has the R3s for $243/ea, and the X-Ice XI3s for $195/ea.
Any reason to pay the extra ~$200 for the R3s?

Or is there another tire folks like better for a studless given my circumstances?

Many thanks for the help (and my daughter, who'll be born in the next couple of weeks, thanks you too)!

 

[mswlogo]

Well, everyone seems to be in agreement that I am behind the times and living in the past with my preference for studded winter tires, so I suppose I'll have to consider studless.

Okay, so what are folks' preferred studless snows?

(FWIW, I'll be splitting my time this winter driving between Maine, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts, primarily in the coastal areas where the temperatures stay relatively mild, 20s-30s F, occasionally dropping into the teens or single digits, but with lots of snow, sleet, and freezing rain, and my priority is on safety (ie, traction) even if it means more noise and mushier handling.)

I've heard people on this thread say Nokian R3s and Michelin X-Ices.
I see Discount Tire has the R3s for $243/ea, and the X-Ice XI3s for $195/ea.
Any reason to pay the extra ~$200 for the R3s?

Or is there another tire folks like better for a studless given my circumstances?

Many thanks for the help (and my daughter, who'll be born in the next couple of weeks, thanks you too)!

Noise was one of my biggest concerns on the Model 3. I'm a very long time Nokian follower. But the Nokian's are a little noisier than stock OEM tires, X-Ice are a little quieter than stock. Nokian is a slightly better tire in snow and they last forever (despite no tread warranty). Either tire is great. But I gave up a little snow traction for a quieter tire and went with X-Ice3. Also don't rule out a performance snow tire. Statistically they make sense, but they won't be as good when things get bad.

Also check out this poll.

Which Snows and Why Poll?

 

[BruceFitzg]

Wondering if any other Maine owners have found a garage that will do 4-wheel alignments? I just replaced tires for the first time since buying my M3, and Town Fair Tire said they couldn't do an alignment because of "a battery in the way"... I have an appointment in Watertown MA but that is 3.5 hrs driving each way for me.

Tesla Mobile Service can't help, so wondering if anyone on this forum has found an authorized or experienced garage that can do the work. I don't want to burn off these new tires too quickly. Thanks!

 

[KG2V]

Studded tires in New England are totally overkill. If you want the most aggressive snow get R3's.

Couldn't get R3s (none in stock) so I went with the R9 - Overkill? Maybe, but also remember what state gets the most snow?
Yep, NY! (Darn Tugg Hill Plateau)

 

[mswlogo]

Couldn't get R3s (none in stock) so I went with the R9 - Overkill? Maybe, but also remember what state gets the most snow?
Yep, NY! (Darn Tugg Hill Plateau)

I’ve got my Nokian’s here when nobody else had them. Be surprised they are not available at this time of year.

Tires For Sale Online | Buy Wheels Online at TiresByWeb.com

Just for fun.

NY is 20th worst, MA is #10th worst, Minnesota is worst according to link below.

It’s not just inches but melting and refreezing that causes lots of ice. Also how well roads are maintained.

Every State, Ranked by How Miserable Its Winters Are

I always laugh when people say they travel to “ski country” and need more capability to get there. When I find they are the best maintained roads. They want your money even if your running on bald tires.

EDIT: More accurate list of states driving conditions in winter

The Deadliest States For Winter Driving

 

[Colgate2004]

EDIT: More accurate list of states driving conditions in winter

The Deadliest States For Winter Driving

Texas? TEXAS???
WTF is going on in *Texas* that it has remotely significant winter driving fatalities? Oh right... people who like to drive rollover-prone pickup trucks and SUVs, who also like to drive like assholes, who ALSO don't have the first clue how to drive in snow, so on the rare occasion when it does get cold, the road is littered with the crumpled remains of trucks with Confederate flags in the windows.
Right.

 

[Colgate2004]

Well, you all have convinced me, I'm going with the R3s.
(This will be a first in my driving life, buying non-studded snows )

I found a pretty good deal on them at my local Tire Warehouse ($924 for 4... cheaper than Discount Tire!).

Also, I found a set of four TPMS sensors for the Model 3 that are well-reviewed on Amazon for $119, here.

So now I just have to find a set of wheels to put them on. I'm looking at the "Vision Cross II" on Discount Tire, here.

I'm not familiar with wheel manufacturers... anybody have any thoughts on these?

 

[KG2V]

The R3s were on their way in, but they had no idea when they were going to show.
The interesting thing about snow in NY. Southern NY (and I'm counting the Catskills, most of the Southern Tier etc aren't really that bad. It is the lake effect areas that get silly, particularly the Tugg Hill Plateau. NYC gets about 28 inches/year (not too bad, a lot of it is glop, and depending, they may not plow - Nassau? Major highways often just go unplowed for the last 5-10 years). Then you get to say, Coppenhagen NY, which gets over 300 inches of snow for the winter (record 466 inches) - yep folks, almost 39 feet. Look at Waterdown/Ft Drum. That whole area is just silly (and that is from a person who has kids in Rochester and Buffalo area)

 

[t-rizzle]

Question for everyone:

When preheating interior cabin of the car before (while plugged in) is it good to also just turn on all the seat warmers on all the seats and not just the seats that might be occupied to help with overall heating of the battery as well? Same applies for when just driving and now just want to use the seat warmers, does it make sense to just turn on all the seat warmers as a radiant heat for the entire cabin and not use the AC heater or better to just keep it set between 68-71 with seat warmers on for only the seats being occupied? This is for normal daily driving not long road trips during the winter.

 

[Jffurlan]

You can see the battery heater icon in the climate tab of the app when it is engaged.

Does anyone have a visual indicator of this? I know what it looks like on a Model S, but have yet to see this in my Model 3. Been experimenting with different charge methods to find the best way to optimize the battery.

My conclusion was that when it’s only charging at 4kW instead of 8kW it was because half the power was going to the motors to warm the battery (based on the 3.5kW I’ve seen mentioned). It’d be great to know for sure in the app that the battery is being heated, especially considering there is no dedicated battery heater.

Lastly, can you turn on seat heaters without turning on climate from the app? I can’t seem to figure it out.

 

[Michael Ferris]

Ran last winter on Toyo walnuts with stock rims. LR/RWD drove very competently! Rotors will rust if you don't use the brakes! Use em! I dim the regen when wet to help dry them out and keep polished. Ditto, after a carwash....year round. Also, I turn charge rate down to 20 amps for low/slow charge all night, calculated to be ALMOST, but not finished when I leave in the morning. Use app to preheat seat and cabin. All is well....and WAY better than driving ICE!

 

[Michael Ferris]

Yes, my brakes are getting squeaky, never use 'em!!! Good advice, thanks.

 

[Tz00]

It’d be great to know for sure in the app that the battery is being heated, especially considering there is no dedicated battery heater.

Using the TeslaFi data, I can see the charger current (48A), the charging current (normally about 44A), and calculate the charging losses (normally about 4A with Sentry mode off). When the battery is cold (outdoor temperature around 0C and sitting all night), I see the charging losses high for about 12 minutes when it first starts charging, peaking around 30-32A. So that would be 6-6.5kW for heating the battery.

The Tesla app only shows 48A/12kW the entire time.

 

[Colgate2004]

Reupping this one... Anybody have any familiarity or thoughts on "Vision Cross II" wheels?

I'm looking for a decent, cheap wheel for my snows.

Well, you all have convinced me, I'm going with the R3s.
(This will be a first in my driving life, buying non-studded snows )

I found a pretty good deal on them at my local Tire Warehouse ($924 for 4... cheaper than Discount Tire!).

Also, I found a set of four TPMS sensors for the Model 3 that are well-reviewed on Amazon for $119, here.

So now I just have to find a set of wheels to put them on. I'm looking at the "Vision Cross II" on Discount Tire, here.

I'm not familiar with wheel manufacturers... anybody have any thoughts on these?