Winter - excessive battery range reduction...

[Destiny1701]

Last night was a balmy () -18c here in Toronto and the family and I had to travel 110km return trip for a holiday dinner. 98% was highway driving at 100-110km/hr and 2 heated seats, cabin heat on. Drove in chill mode so no hard or aggressive movements. Winter tires on.

Scenario:

Preheated the cabin (and presumably the battery) for 30 min while plugged in.
Left the home with 485km range.
Drove 110km distance
Returned with 234km range.

Quite literally the battery range reduced a whopping 251km on a 110km drive. At that reduction, the remaining 234km of estimated range would give us abt 100km further actual distance.

Total actual range would have been no more than 210km off a 485km range.?!

That’s a ridiculous 57% reduction in battery range on account of cold weather even with the battery pre heated one way.

Anyone else ever experience this kind of range reduction? We drive a P100D so not sure if that matters given one of the motors cuts anyway at continuous highway speeds to incr range. I understand the affects of cold temperatures on lithium batteries but I can’t even imagine what would have happened I had a 75D modelX in this scenario. I believe this is excessive reduction. Anyone else?

 

[mongo]

Last night was a balmy () -18c here in Toronto and the family and I had to travel 110km return trip for a holiday dinner. 98% was highway driving at 100-110km/hr and 2 heated seats, cabin heat on. Drove in chill mode so no hard or aggressive movements. Winter tires on.

Scenario:

Preheated the cabin (and presumably the battery) for 30 min while plugged in.
Left the home with 485km range.
Drove 110km distance
Returned with 234km range.

Quite literally the battery range reduced a whopping 251km on a 110km drive. At that reduction, the remaining 234km of estimated range would give us abt 100km further actual distance.

Total actual range would have been no more than 210km off a 485km range.?!

That’s a ridiculous 57% reduction in battery range on account of cold weather even with the battery pre heated one way.

Anyone else ever experience this kind of range reduction? We drive a P100D so not sure if that matters given one of the motors cuts anyway at continuous highway speeds to incr range. I understand the affects of cold temperatures on lithium batteries but I can’t even imagine what would have happened I had a 75D modelX in this scenario. I believe this is excessive reduction. Anyone else?

One item to consider, assuming you were not displaying ideal range, the vehicle updates remaining range based on usage history, so the 234 km remaining may have been accurate for the conditions and not require further derating.
In other words 110+234 = 344km (dang it's cold) range vs the original (didn't know it was winter) range of 485, so a loss of 30%.

EDIT: The nav screen updates the actual projected range, the battery readout does not.

 

[S'toon]

One item to consider, assuming you were not displaying ideal range, the vehicle updates remaining range based on usage history, so the 234 km remaining may have been accurate for the conditions and not require further derating.
In other words 110+234 = 344km (dang it's cold) range vs the original (didn't know it was winter) range of 485, so a loss of 30%.

-18 isn't "dang it's cold" weather. Yesterday when I went for my morning walk it was -33C/-27F. Now that's cold.

 

[Destiny1701]

One item to consider, assuming you were not displaying ideal range, the vehicle updates remaining range based on usage history, so the 234 km remaining may have been accurate for the conditions and not require further derating.
In other words 110+234 = 344km (dang it's cold) range vs the original (didn't know it was winter) range of 485, so a loss of 30%.

Not quite. If we had continued driving, and based on the reduction % right up until I parked back home, the remaining 234km would have yielded approx 100km of actual real world driving...resulting in an actual physical range of 210km off the initial 485km. I’d be out of ‘gas’ in another 100km.

I’ve had range reduction last winter on my previous 90D and approx 25-30% was my average experience.

57% is ... actually ludicrous lol.

 

[mongo]

-18 isn't "dang it's cold" weather. Yesterday when I went for my morning walk it was -33C/-27F. Now that's cold.

Tell that to the Nevada/ California battery pack!
Most lithium cells can't charge below 0C, so if you want regen, that huge exposed metal pack need to stay defrosted (internally).

 

[mongo]

Not quite. If we had continued driving, and based on the reduction % right up until I parked back home, the remaining 234km would have yielded approx 100km of actual real world driving...resulting in an actual physical range of 210km off the initial 485km. I’d be out of ‘gas’ in another 100km.

I’ve had range reduction last winter on my previous 90D and approx 25-30% was my average experience.

57% is ... actually ludicrous lol.

Wow, I thought the range estimator was fairly accurate. If it was dropping 2 miles of range every mile of travel after 1.5 hours of driving, it sure is not (unless you're in a dynamic weather situation like driving west into a lake effect snowstorm).
I wonder if the battery heater was increasing output as the weather pulled the energy out of the pre-conditioned pack.

Side question, how was the people comfort level during the drive?

 

[Destiny1701]

Wow, I thought the range estimator was fairly accurate. If it was dropping 2 miles of range every mile of travel after 1.5 hours of driving, it sure is not (unless you're in a dynamic weather situation like driving west into a lake effect snowstorm).
I wonder if the battery heater was increasing output as the weather pulled the energy out of the pre-conditioned pack.

Side question, how was the people comfort level during the drive?

Good question. The cabin heater was not providing good heat for the footwell area and I could literally feel colder air by the floor mat even with air at 8 and set to 25c. As if cold air was leaking in or there simply wasn’t enough insulation provided between the battery housing and the sub-floor. And when the battery is that cold, the cabin floor actually cools as a result?

 

[mrElbe]

Blasting air at 8 and temp setting of 25C surely will take a toll on range in this weather. I have my interior temp set at 20C and all other HVAC settings on Auto. Works well for me and the passenger since we both have winter clothing on.

 

[mongo]

Good question. The cabin heater was not providing good heat for the footwell area and I could literally feel colder air by the floor mat even with air at 8 and set to 25c. As if cold air was leaking in or there simply wasn’t enough insulation provided between the battery housing and the sub-floor. And when the battery is that cold, the cabin floor actually cools as a result?

An above freezing battery should be better that the -18C air stream in terms of floor temp, but I think the pack starts after the curve of foot well. Was HVAC on external or recirculate?

 

[Destiny1701]

An above freezing battery should be better that the -18C air stream in terms of floor temp, but I think the pack starts after the curve of foot well. Was HVAC on external or recirculate?

It was on external or else the inside cabin windows would fog eventually. It was set to 5 for the trip out and on return, half the trip was still 5 until we noticed our feet were cold. Increased to 6, then 7 and finally 8 about 10 min away from home.
By the time I was at 7, I remembered range mode affects cabin temp power so I turned that off as well. However prior to range mode OFF, the reduction was still the same 2km for each km driven...or slightly more.

 

[fren]

you didn t say at witch speed you drove and where was the eventual wind coming from
typically in France i see a summer trip of 453km taking 85kw/95kw that becomes 115/125kw in winter ( 2 to 6 degree C ) , speed on highway at 130km/h for 300km then 110km/h ( and 22C in cabin for heater all trip 5 hours )

 

[Destiny1701]

you didn t say at witch speed you drove and where was the eventual wind coming from
typically in France i see a summer trip of 453km taking 85kw/95kw that becomes 115/125kw in winter ( 2 to 6 degree C ) , speed on highway at 130km/h for 300km then 110km/h ( and 22C in cabin for heater all trip 5 hours )

Mentioned in first post 100-100km/hr. Wind was headwind going and tailwind returning. However winds were not strong yesterday night at all.

In my experience with my 90D last year, the maximum range reduction I would see would be around 25% during 0 to -12c days average. This is the first drive I’ve had which saw -19c at one point but stayed at -18c all night.

I’m just shocked at knowing I’d get 210km off a 485km drive in chill mode at a constant speed.

 

[jdw]

Not unusual, but efficiency does go up on longer drives in cold weather. Short hops and cold soaking the battery has a big impact. The heaters + cold air wind resistance + snow on road do add up. My records from Teslafi:

 

[Snowstorm]

A fellow S100 driver in the Toronto area. I haven't done trips longer than 30km in the deep cold so far, but can attest to 35% higher than rated consumption, maybe as much as 50% in he first drive with a cold battery. Some of it I assume would be to preheat the battery. In fact, during the first part of the drive, one can see significant power consumption on the energy meter even when stopped. Cabin set to 19C.

According to Tesla Fi, my efficiency is better than rated (105%) when temp is 10-20c, but only 60% of rated at -10 to -20

 

[Destiny1701]

A fellow S100 driver in the Toronto area. I haven't done trips longer than 30km in the deep cold so far, but can attest to 35% higher than rated consumption, maybe as much as 50% in he first drive with a cold battery. Some of it I assume would be to preheat the battery. In fact, during the first part of the drive, one can see significant power consumption on the energy meter even when stopped. Cabin set to 19C.

According to Tesla Fi, my efficiency is better than rated (105%) when temp is 10-20c, but only 60% of rated at -10 to -20

Good to know. I just assumed after driving steady at 100-110 for 50min each way, I’d have seen at least some reduced drainage. But not so. Through the entire drive, the range kept draining at more than 2x the actual Km driven. And I pre heated prior to leaving.

Maybe it’s normal for batteries to lose 50-60% in -20c. Really makes me question the future viability of EV’s in cold climates unless battery heating technology can limit degrading to a reasonable % and or the normal ranges start hitting the 650-750km at nominal temperatures.

 

[Destiny1701]

Not unusual, but efficiency does go up on longer drives in cold weather. Short hops and cold soaking the battery has a big impact. The heaters + cold air wind resistance + snow on road do add up. My records from Teslafi:

View attachment 269034

Nice chart thx. Would 110km with only 2km of total city driving qualify as a longer drive?

 

[TexasEV]

One item to consider, assuming you were not displaying ideal range, the vehicle updates remaining range based on usage history

No it doesn’t. Why does this myth persist? Rated range on the battery meter is the range on the EPA test cycle. Period. Full stop.

If you’re using navigation, the trip display shows projected miles or km based on recent driving. This does not impact the range displayed on the battery meter.

 

[mongo]

No it doesn’t. Why does this myth persist? Rated range on the battery meter is the range on the EPA test cycle. Period. Full stop.

If you’re using navigation, the trip display shows projected miles or km based on recent driving. This does not impact the range displayed on the battery meter.

My Bad, picked up incorrect info based on perception of how it should work. Will correct in future. Thank you for the reality check.

(EPA v.s. ideal seems like two sides of a useless coin, nav screen is the way to go)

 

[eye.surgeon]

Last night was a balmy () -18c here in Toronto and the family and I had to travel 110km return trip for a holiday dinner. 98% was highway driving at 100-110km/hr and 2 heated seats, cabin heat on. Drove in chill mode so no hard or aggressive movements. Winter tires on.

Scenario:

Preheated the cabin (and presumably the battery) for 30 min while plugged in.
Left the home with 485km range.
Drove 110km distance
Returned with 234km range.

Quite literally the battery range reduced a whopping 251km on a 110km drive. At that reduction, the remaining 234km of estimated range would give us abt 100km further actual distance.

Total actual range would have been no more than 210km off a 485km range.?!

That’s a ridiculous 57% reduction in battery range on account of cold weather even with the battery pre heated one way.

Anyone else ever experience this kind of range reduction? We drive a P100D so not sure if that matters given one of the motors cuts anyway at continuous highway speeds to incr range. I understand the affects of cold temperatures on lithium batteries but I can’t even imagine what would have happened I had a 75D modelX in this scenario. I believe this is excessive reduction. Anyone else?

Normal. As pointed out above rated range is based on the EPA cycle and doesn't factor temperature, navigation range does.

You're operating at the extreme edge of the temperature range of the battery, plus it sat in extreme cold prior to return home and froze that battery like a Popsicle. Battery heater + cabin heater was probably maxed out the whole way home. The fact that the battery can even function in that environment is a testament to the engineering.

 

[thefortunes]

Not unusual, but efficiency does go up on longer drives in cold weather. Short hops and cold soaking the battery has a big impact. The heaters + cold air wind resistance + snow on road do add up. My records from Teslafi:

View attachment 269034

Our data from TeslaFi: