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Winter - excessive battery range reduction...

mknox

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2012
10,103
1,870
Toronto, ON
Pirelli Winter Scorpions
Service Center said those were the ones recommended for the X & the only ones they could order thru Parts.

The Nokian Hakka R2's are about the best you can get for traction (from reports, close to the Michelin X-ice) and have the advantage of ultra low rolling resistance. Tesla now recommends these tires, at least here in Canada. Best of both worlds and noticibly better than the Pirelli's I've experienced on loaners a few times in winter over the years.

The Nokian WR-g3 is also low rolling resistance.

We had a national Canadian tire dealer and Nokian rep attend our last Tesla Owners Club meeting and surprisingly, the Nokian guy said he did not recommend the WRG-3 for the Model S or X, only the R2's. I know a few owners with them and speak quite highly, so I'm not sure why he would say that. On the other hand, I've heard of a couple of folks who have had WGR-3 sidewall blowouts on the (heavier) Model X, so maybe they're not as good with the weight of these vehicles???
 

jerry33

(S85-3/2/13 traded in) X LR: F2611##-3/27/20
Supporting Member
Mar 8, 2012
19,966
23,918
Texas
We had a national Canadian tire dealer and Nokian rep attend our last Tesla Owners Club meeting and surprisingly, the Nokian guy said he did not recommend the WRG-3 for the Model S or X, only the R2's. I know a few owners with them and speak quite highly, so I'm not sure why he would say that. On the other hand, I've heard of a couple of folks who have had WGR-3 sidewall blowouts on the (heavier) Model X, so maybe they're not as good with the weight of these vehicles???

In Canada I would also use the R2s. My opinion is that the WR-g3 are for areas that don't have a real winter, but when the occasional ice storm or ski trip comes up you need something with some real traction. The rest of the time you need something that won't melt in warm temperatures and have crisper handling. Without inspecting the tires, I can't really comment on the sidewall issues other than to say make sure they have enough air. Sidewall issues are mostly due to low air pressure. The vehicle placard pressure is a starting point only and should be adjusted (almost always upward for on-road and non-track cars) depending upon the driving conditions. (There is now a WR-G4 tire.)

Looking at the specs, the reason the Nokian rep didn't recommend them will be the speed rating: V vs W. Because the WR tires are also expected to be run in the summer, the factory rep can't recommend anything with less than the OE speed rating. (Thank you Mr. Lawyer.) Winter tires are expected to have a lower speed limit, so that's not an issue. Carrying capacity is certainly not a problem.

245/45R19 102 V (240 km/h) 1870 WR-g3/4
245/45R19 98 W (270 km/h) 1653 Michelin Primacy MXM4
 
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Zapped

Model S - PURE EV
Aug 8, 2012
1,191
215
Work<->Home
Interesting finding this thread 2 years later.
Seems my experience with range loss on my 2021 Model S LR+ is not new.

My 2012 MS performance never lost more than 20% range but this new car can easily lose 50% or more at -18C / -1F.
No more Range Mode on the LR+ so I assume the only way to get the % loss down is to turn off the cabin heat. Back to the 2012 cabin temps I guess.
 

SMSMD

Active Member
Dec 2, 2015
1,355
635
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Interesting finding this thread 2 years later.
Seems my experience with range loss on my 2021 Model S LR+ is not new.

My 2012 MS performance never lost more than 20% range but this new car can easily lose 50% or more at -18C / -1F.
No more Range Mode on the LR+ so I assume the only way to get the % loss down is to turn off the cabin heat. Back to the 2012 cabin temps I guess.
:eek:
 

Brian-MS90D

Member
May 31, 2017
176
125
Cincinnati, OH
Interesting finding this thread 2 years later.
Seems my experience with range loss on my 2021 Model S LR+ is not new.

My 2012 MS performance never lost more than 20% range but this new car can easily lose 50% or more at -18C / -1F.
No more Range Mode on the LR+ so I assume the only way to get the % loss down is to turn off the cabin heat. Back to the 2012 cabin temps I guess.
50% and more?! Whaaaaat? Is that hyperbole or - ?
You're not going to gain 50%+ range from turning your heat off o_O

The only way I could see 50%+ loss is if you're not pre-heating vehicle (not plugged in before you depart) and you're doing a lot of short driving trips. In which case, it wouldn't matter because you can just frequently plug in (and just enjoy how warm your car is). If you're seeing over half of your range gone on a long road trip, then you have something serious going on.
 

Zapped

Model S - PURE EV
Aug 8, 2012
1,191
215
Work<->Home
50% and more?! Whaaaaat? Is that hyperbole or - ?
You're not going to gain 50%+ range from turning your heat off o_O

The only way I could see 50%+ loss is if you're not pre-heating vehicle (not plugged in before you depart) and you're doing a lot of short driving trips. In which case, it wouldn't matter because you can just frequently plug in (and just enjoy how warm your car is). If you're seeing over half of your range gone on a long road trip, then you have something serious going on.

My trips have been short approx 6 miles but the one time parked outside I was charging well before I left. I didn’t have the cabin heat on but I assume the battery would be warm. Lost 12 miles of range on reaching my destination.
Even trips starting from my heat garage are using double the energy.
At first I thought the car needed some time to break-in and loosen up. Not so sure now.
I’m going to watch this more closely and report to Tesla if it continues
 

appleguru

Member
Mar 15, 2017
956
1,689
MA, US
My trips have been short approx 6 miles but the one time parked outside I was charging well before I left. I didn’t have the cabin heat on but I assume the battery would be warm. Lost 12 miles of range on reaching my destination.
Even trips starting from my heat garage are using double the energy.
At first I thought the car needed some time to break-in and loosen up. Not so sure now.
I’m going to watch this more closely and report to Tesla if it continues

that’s super normal for short trips on a cold pack; the car will use energy to heat up the pack/restore regen, and on a short trip there is never any time to take advantage of that.

On the model s/x you can always turn on range mode, which will largely prevent this... but a warm battery is a happy battery, so I’d really only use range mode if you really need the extra range. (I don’t believe range mode is an option on the 3/y?)
 

David29

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Aug 1, 2015
2,260
1,915
DEDHAM, MA
b
My trips have been short approx 6 miles but the one time parked outside I was charging well before I left. I didn’t have the cabin heat on but I assume the battery would be warm. Lost 12 miles of range on reaching my destination.
Even trips starting from my heat garage are using double the energy.
...

If I am understanding you correctly, it is not surprising you are using so much energy. Charging may warm the battery somewhat, but charging at home at modest currents won't warm it enough to avoid range loss. (Charging at a Supercharger is a different story.) And as you said, you did not preheat the cabin -- that is the single biggest extra drain on the battery in winter, so you will be much better off if you preheat. If you are preheating while plugged in, that will also preheat the battery and is the ONLY way you can force the battery to preheat itself.
Also, you say your garage is heated -- I wonder how much. Is the floor concrete? If it is, I will bet the floor is still quite cold (unless you are spending a lot of energy to heat your garage). Keep in mind that the battery is on the bottom of the car, and will be the temperature of the air around it, so if your floor is concrete and cold, your battery will likely not be that warm even if the air in the garage is somewhat warmer than the outside.
 
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PA70D

Member
Jan 2, 2016
39
15
Harrisburg, PA
b

If I am understanding you correctly, it is not surprising you are using so much energy. Charging may warm the battery somewhat, but charging at home at modest currents won't warm it enough to avoid range loss. (Charging at a Supercharger is a different story.) And as you said, you did not preheat the cabin -- that is the single biggest extra drain on the battery in winter, so you will be much better off if you preheat. If you are preheating while plugged in, that will also preheat the battery and is the ONLY way you can force the battery to preheat itself.
Also, you say your garage is heated -- I wonder how much. Is the floor concrete? If it is, I will bet the floor is still quite cold (unless you are spending a lot of energy to heat your garage). Keep in mind that the battery is on the bottom of the car, and will be the temperature of the air around it, so if your floor is concrete and cold, your battery will likely not be that warm even if the air in the garage is somewhat warmer than the outside.


This is my 6th winter, car has 97,000 miles, it appears have lost considerable range rather quickly, So much so have scheduled a service appointment to have things checked out. I do preheat car and cabin prior to any trip, around town short trips have never paid attention to range in winter. An example ... Recent trip of 73 miles started changed at 81% (2015 Model S D70) reached destination at 32% my expectation would have been to use closer to half this amount of charge. The outside temperature was in the mid 40's so really not too cold. Used navigation which accurately predicted the range. Estimate 1.5 miles per KW on this trip (had a similar trip at temperatures in high 20s since then with similar experience), in summer have been just over 3miles per KW, previous winters somewhere around 2.5 per KW. In the winter also use winter tires which reduces the range. The ride home is the second chapter, needed to go to super charger to get home, arrived at SC with 19%, max charge rate was 75KW. Believe I am charge rate limited but first time did not begin charging around 90KW. The battery was cold starting out, however was preconditioning the entire trip to the charger. Would appreciate any thoughts or if you know of a better thread for the second part of the discussion.
 

beatle

Active Member
Aug 31, 2019
1,251
686
Springfield, VA
Consumption just doesn't check out. I think that instead of Tesla reporting the range degradation, they are now just artificially jacking up the consumption. Over 650wh/mi is staggering.
 

David29

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Aug 1, 2015
2,260
1,915
DEDHAM, MA
This is my 6th winter, car has 97,000 miles, it appears have lost considerable range rather quickly, So much so have scheduled a service appointment to have things checked out. I do preheat car and cabin prior to any trip, around town short trips have never paid attention to range in winter. An example ... Recent trip of 73 miles started changed at 81% (2015 Model S D70) reached destination at 32% my expectation would have been to use closer to half this amount of charge. The outside temperature was in the mid 40's so really not too cold. Used navigation which accurately predicted the range. Estimate 1.5 miles per KW on this trip (had a similar trip at temperatures in high 20s since then with similar experience), in summer have been just over 3miles per KW, previous winters somewhere around 2.5 per KW. In the winter also use winter tires which reduces the range. The ride home is the second chapter, needed to go to super charger to get home, arrived at SC with 19%, max charge rate was 75KW. Believe I am charge rate limited but first time did not begin charging around 90KW. The battery was cold starting out, however was preconditioning the entire trip to the charger. Would appreciate any thoughts or if you know of a better thread for the second part of the discussion.

Without looking too closely at your numbers, I would say my experience is similar, but i do not use miles to track battery usage, I use per cent. There are lots of discussions (and arguments) in other threads about that choice.
One suggestion I would make is to read this guidance from tesla, and consider using their suggestions.
Range Tips
 
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PA70D

Member
Jan 2, 2016
39
15
Harrisburg, PA
Without looking too closely at your numbers, I would say my experience is similar, but i do not use miles to track battery usage, I use per cent. There are lots of discussions (and arguments) in other threads about that choice.
One suggestion I would make is to read this guidance from tesla, and consider using their suggestions.
Range Tips


Thank you for the link to the thread. Reviewed really see nothing new.

Looks like we have pretty much the same car mine about three months older.

Real problem is with a significant drop in range and supercharging speed the car does not perform to the same level when purchased. Is a great car but expected to get more than 5 - 6 years our of it. Our house is all electric, other second car is a model 3. If this turns out to be "normal" degradation need to rethink all electric.

Also use percent to track battery usage.
 
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Big Earl

bnkwupt
Supporting Member
Jul 12, 2017
5,845
10,839
Springfield, VA
Thank you for the link to the thread. Reviewed really see nothing new.

Looks like we have pretty much the same car mine about three months older.

Real problem is with a significant drop in range and supercharging speed the car does not perform to the same level when purchased. Is a great car but expected to get more than 5 - 6 years our of it. Our house is all electric, other second car is a model 3. If this turns out to be "normal" degradation need to rethink all electric.

Also use percent to track battery usage.

What you’re experiencing is common on older Model S vehicles, unfortunately. Based on info in the big thread about the issue, the reduction in range and charging speed seems to be an attempt (seems successful so far) at preventing battery fires.

I don’t think this will happen to newer vehicles like your Model 3, but only time will tell.
 

aerodyne

Active Member
Nov 19, 2018
2,832
3,056
Los Angeles
Thank you for the link to the thread. Reviewed really see nothing new.

Looks like we have pretty much the same car mine about three months older.

Real problem is with a significant drop in range and supercharging speed the car does not perform to the same level when purchased. Is a great car but expected to get more than 5 - 6 years our of it. Our house is all electric, other second car is a model 3. If this turns out to be "normal" degradation need to rethink all electric.

Also use percent to track battery usage.

You either have excessive consumption or battery degradation. Before you change cars, get a CAN bus reader and find out the actual capacity and consumption as reported by the BMS.

You might have malfunctioning battery heater or another consumer causing excessive power draw.
 
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Zapped

Model S - PURE EV
Aug 8, 2012
1,191
215
Work<->Home
My MS LR+ is using a higher percentage of the battery for the heater, which makes sense considering that the motors are more efficient but the heater is not. I assume the battery is still around 100kwh.
The reported Wh/ mile remains low but does not reflect the overall battery consumption.
So winter heating has a more significant impact on the overall battery range than the non LR+ MS
Just wondering if that logic is correct.
 
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COS Blue

Member
Oct 18, 2020
66
74
Colorado Springs, Colorado
My MS LR+ is using a higher percentage of the battery for the heater, which makes sense considering that the motors are more efficient but the heater is not.
I'm new to all this -- this is my first time being away from home with my MS LR+ for more than a weekend in the winter, but my observations are similar. What I have found is that consumption was only mildly worse on the road trip to get to our vacation spot (110 mile drive, temps around 10-20F), but the short trips in town once we got here are hogging the battery pretty good. So I think it's those short trips using all the energy to heat the cabin from 10F or whatever, whereas on the longer trip, once the cabin warmed up, it didn't need to use nearly so much energy to keep it warm.

I preheated the car for 20 minutes before one in-town trip, that was definitely not worth the battery drain. Learning as I go....
 
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aerodyne

Active Member
Nov 19, 2018
2,832
3,056
Los Angeles
If you use the navigation feature in the car, you won't go wrong.

Sure, preheating, charging before you depart, conditioning the car all help, but it you give yourself a 30% margin for inclement weather and traffic, you will be fine.

For a trip, Charging to 90%, driving to 20%, and adding a 30% margin leaves you with 40%. Highway range on a LR+ is about 350 miles, and 40% of that is 140 miles.

You should be able to make just about any SuC on a cross country trip.

If in doubt, use the Nav and check the energy graph, modify heat and driving speed as needed.
 
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