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Winter handling Subaru vs dual-motor model Y

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I learn not to brake making a turn. I brake before the turn. Specially on slippery conditions. Braking could cause lose of grip. If regen is causing you to fish tail, it means you are letting go the accelerator too much, hence triggering regen. Abs does not interfere if the wheels lock due to regen. Seems to be that off road assist helps with that.
 
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I’ll just say that old/current STI is a true mechanical AWD system. Evo had a very good system, but STI is/was better for grip (Evo was better at controlled slip). Meaning more easy to hoon with rear out, but technically slower on snow bc of that extra fun.

STI (all mechanical)
Helical front differential
Planetary gear center differential
TorSen rear differential

You may be thinking about DCCD using electromagnetic or electrically actuated plates to slow the planetary gears (to move torque to the front up to 50:50 from 41:59 on newer models). But again, this is not an eDiff or anything like that.

Not sure I see what you're disagreeing about . The Evo 9 had an electronically activated hydraulically controlled clutchpack in the center diff (I have worked on it in person, it's in the transfer case). The car would let you adjust how fast the diff would lock. Later models had AYC which is arguably faster but made the car way more unpredictable. I didn't say the STI had the same setup, only that it performed about the same.
 
Not sure I see what you're disagreeing about . The Evo 9 had an electronically activated hydraulically controlled clutchpack in the center diff (I have worked on it in person, it's in the transfer case). The car would let you adjust how fast the diff would lock. Later models had AYC which is arguably faster but made the car way more unpredictable. I didn't say the STI had the same setup, only that it performed about the same.
You said the Evo was the “last of the true mechanical AWD systems.” The STI is a true mechanical AWD system (with a real mechanical center differential, not clutch packs ) and is still in production.
 
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You said the Evo was the “last of the true mechanical AWD systems.” The STI is a true mechanical AWD system (with a real mechanical center differential, not clutch packs ) and is still in production.

Oh I see what you're saying. I don't believe that's true for the STI, from Subaru's website:

"The Driver’s Control Centre Differential (DCCD) allows the centre differential locking of the WRX STI to be dialed in and adjust its handling. It adjusts both an electromagnetic multi-plate transfer clutch and mechanical locking of a Limited Slip Differential (LSD) to distribute torque to the front and rear wheels."

I admit I'm more familiar with the Evo that the STI but it sounds pretty darn similar, although I see your point on it having a mechanical LSD as well.

In any case I think we can both agree that those systems are better than the M3/Y.
 
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Oh I see what you're saying. I don't believe that's true for the STI, from Subaru's website:

"The Driver’s Control Centre Differential (DCCD) allows the centre differential locking of the WRX STI to be dialed in and adjust its handling. It adjusts both an electromagnetic multi-plate transfer clutch and mechanical locking of a Limited Slip Differential (LSD) to distribute torque to the front and rear wheels."

I admit I'm more familiar with the Evo that the STI but it sounds pretty darn similar, although I see your point on it having a mechanical LSD as well.

In any case I think we can both agree that those systems are better than the M3/Y.
They are the best ICE systems, period haha. With EVs having two motors, I am very excited for the possibilities.

In the STI, the center differential is a mechanical planetary gear type, which defaults to 41:59 split (older models were more rear-biased). In order to move torque forward (driver controlled up to 50:50 lock max), a set of plates push against the planetary gears to slow their movement, which splits more torque forward.

The Evo 9 w/ ACD is 50:50 always. The Evo uses a bevel gear in the transfer case and clutch packs to control it. The clutch packs merely force it back to 50:50 if there is slip, it does not adjust torque split like the STI.

The Evo had 3 modes while the STI has multiple auto modes and manual modes (to the point where I could grenade the center diff if I wanted).

By contrast, most AWD cars don't have a true center differential at all, and only use a clutch pack to transfer torque front/rear.
 
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Coming from someone who has to deal with winter driving half the year (Alaska!) We also have a 15 outback and can confirm that it is the King of winter driving imo so it is very hard to match/beat it when it comes to snow handling. However, the Y is extremely capable and the tech involved in controlling the car is top notch.
 
After snow blowing the driveway (Ego 2-stage blower w/ dual 5ah batteries) I went for a drive to get coffee. I have Pirelli P Zero Winter. The roads were plowed, but there is still snow on the pavement. The car drove great. I even drove in the lanes that didn't have tracks. Yes, at times I can tell that the rears are primary, but I felt very confident, tons of grip, 40mph+, never had any issues on hills, etc. I also didn't have any problem with regen disrupting the rear (granted regen is low as it is cold). I tried to induce the regen to get it to wiggle...nope, just stopped or slowed in a controlled manner.

On slow turns onto another street even with extra steering angle and getting on the throttle more than normal the rear barely moved, just the normal amount for rear-biased AWD.

I was very happy with the experience.
 
After snow blowing the driveway (Ego 2-stage blower w/ dual 5ah batteries) I went for a drive to get coffee. I have Pirelli P Zero Winter. The roads were plowed, but there is still snow on the pavement. The car drove great. I even drove in the lanes that didn't have tracks. Yes, at times I can tell that the rears are primary, but I felt very confident, tons of grip, 40mph+, never had any issues on hills, etc. I also didn't have any problem with regen disrupting the rear (granted regen is low as it is cold). I tried to induce the regen to get it to wiggle...nope, just stopped or slowed in a controlled manner.

On slow turns onto another street even with extra steering angle and getting on the throttle more than normal the rear barely moved, just the normal amount for rear-biased AWD.

I was very happy with the experience.

Agreed. Same experience with my Model 3 AWD. I now have spent sufficient time with it this year in different winter driving experiences to say that it is excellent. Even pushing it on snowy and icy roads, there is almost never any back end movement, and the couple of times I have felt anything, it was no more than a momentary wiggle.
 
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After snow blowing the driveway (Ego 2-stage blower w/ dual 5ah batteries) I went for a drive to get coffee. I have Pirelli P Zero Winter. The roads were plowed, but there is still snow on the pavement. The car drove great. I even drove in the lanes that didn't have tracks. Yes, at times I can tell that the rears are primary, but I felt very confident, tons of grip, 40mph+, never had any issues on hills, etc. I also didn't have any problem with regen disrupting the rear (granted regen is low as it is cold). I tried to induce the regen to get it to wiggle...nope, just stopped or slowed in a controlled manner.

On slow turns onto another street even with extra steering angle and getting on the throttle more than normal the rear barely moved, just the normal amount for rear-biased AWD.

I was very happy with the experience.
Similar experience and feedback as Snow Drift and chinney. 6+ inches on the ground around town here (and still snowing). By now some hard pack, some ice w/snow on top, some fresh untracked, some plowed and chunky, etc... generally a wide variety of conditions.

30 plus yeas of both Minnesota and Wyoming winters in everything from rusty El Caminos to tech-heavy Grand Cherokees... the LRAWD MY is fine for what it is. It does drive (ever-so-slightly) like a rear-biased vehicle, but the way it adjusts is completely predictable and very capable. After a few drives your brain and driving style will adjust without much lost to the overall task of getting from point A to point B. Never once made me feel out of control or worried about what was going to happen next. No unexpected loss of traction, no weird momentum surprises, no wonky regen-induced sliding.

I have to admit I was a little nervous after reading thread upon thread, but the past few days have happily alleviated those worries. Don’t get me wrong, this would not be a vehicle I would consider exploring any forest service roads with this time of year... it’s not that sort of capable.

that’s my $.02

(btw, stock all-seasons)
 
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Here in Tacoma, WA - I finally got a chance to drive the MYP in snow with stock 19” Gemini Continental ProContact RX tires.

I’ve been all over Tacoma now, as I like driving in the snow, and all of it was uneventful... boring honestly. And that’s the way most drivers want their cars to perform. I however want to use my car and I like controlling power, braking, and sliding... again I like winter driving.

My 2000 VW Golf TDI is honestly more fun to drive in the snow (she is on Pirelli studless snows), because I can predict and control how the car will respond to my inputs.

And we need more MY snow shots.
34502FDB-78BD-40C7-A07F-3761A001F643.jpeg
 
All that is interesting and good, but the simple fact remains that it is not as sure footed as a Subaru and more prone to temporary traction loss which opens up the possibility of catastrophic accidents on ice or highways. This is a factor to me as I consider my children’s safety a priority.

Based on my experience as both Tesla and Subaru owner, the "interesting and good" part is what you are saying is not actually true.
 
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All that is interesting and good, but the simple fact remains that it is not as sure footed as a Subaru and more prone to temporary traction loss which opens up the possibility of catastrophic accidents on ice or highways. This is a factor to me as I consider my children’s safety a priority.
I am an official "Subaru Ambassador." I am biased TOWARDS Subaru and I have been an owner since 2004. Subaru makes the best AWD system in the world, but it is only on the WRX STI 6MT.

  1. Rear Biased: STI is a 3-mechanical differential system (Helical front, Planetary Gear center, TorSen rear for a while now) which is rear-biased (35:65 or 41:59) and is used on their rally cars. The extra rear bias allows the car to turn better and when needed it can be forced up to 50:50.
  2. Rear Biased: At one point they offered a very good VTD system for Automatics, which was a planetary gear center differential which had a 45:55 bias.
  3. Neutral Biased: The next best system they offer is Viscous-Coupling center differential and it is on their Manual cars only (WRX (not STI), Crosstrek and older stick cars). This is 50:50 biased but will still exhibit characteristics of rear powered cars.
  4. Front Biased: Today, you get into Active AWD on their CVT cars. This is 60:40. This has more characteristics of a front drive system which exhibits understeer and plows when it loses traction. This does not have a locking center differential and instead uses a continuously variable Multi-Plate Transfer clutch-pack to adjust the torque distribution. This Subaru system better than most others, but not better than the manual ones offered by Subaru which all have a rear bias or 50:50. This system does not have the same rear biased feelings that the manual systems exhibit. The average driver may consider this to "feel" more stable, but it isn't really. If it was the rally cars would use it.
All of these systems need snow tires to get the best out of them.

The Tesla system, is rear for most of the time until it needs the fronts. It is extremely fast and capable. I have no issues with it and enjoy it. With winter tires, my Model 3 was great in the snow as is our Model Y. Teslas are so efficient because they are primarily rear powered.

Based on my experience as both Tesla and Subaru owner, the "interesting and good" part is what you are saying is not actually true.
Agreed.

Here is my experience with the topic:

1 WRX STI (DCCD aka Planetary Gear, Helical, Torsen)
3 WRX (Continuous AWD aka Viscous Coupling)
2 Crosstrek Hybrids (one Hybrid, one PHEV - Active AWD)
2 Tesla (MY and M3)

IMG_5047.jpeg

IMG_5048.jpeg

IMG_5049.jpeg

IMG_4234.jpeg
 
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Based on my experience as both Tesla and Subaru owner, the "interesting and good" part is what you are saying is not actually true.

After a few more snowy drives with the Sottozeros, I still have to agree with Mvdaog, at least in part. Having driven several Subaru's (Outback and Forester only), FWD (most recently Bolt and Jetta), and now the MY, it seems clear that temporary loss of traction occurs more often with the RWD biased MY. We've had until lately hardly any snow this year so I haven't been able to play around nearly as much as I'd like, but I do feel like the off road assist may help it not fishtail as often. It does seem to compensate when loss of rear traction occurs, and it probably isn't as unsafe as it feels, but as Bjorn noted in the video way upthread, I'd still rather not have the 0.5 second "oh, sh*t" feeling occur while driving up a mountain pass. For me plowing through corners was a rare problem with FWDs or Subaru's, but fishtailing (even though short-lived) happens often.

The average driver may consider this to "feel" more stable, but it isn't really. If it was the rally cars would use it.

I'm not sure this applies in "real life", as I'd imagine rally car drivers may not mind something that's less stable(esp to an average driver), as long as they can get around the corner faster. Obviously this all also very much depending on driver capability/experience/different cars they're used to. My last RWD car was a 1979 Pontiac Bonneville Safari wagon so there you go. Is the old maxim "FWD is safer than RWD in the snow" not true anymore? Maybe it was always an oversimplification but I do think for an average driver correcting for plowing is more natural than for fishtailing, and it's easier to pull than push a car up hill in snow.

I love my MY (apart from this) and want Tesla to succeed in cold weather states. To me it seems beyond silly that with all the complaints they've had from M3 and now MY AWD owners that they don't have a slight front-biased "snow mode" with a warning badge on range reduction or what have you. It's supposed to snow here some more for a few days and will hit the passes playing more with "off road assist", but it would seem preferable to have the snow mode option keep traction control on etc...

People these days (like me) are used to FWD or more neutral AWD systems, particularly in cold weather areas. I just don't see Utah and other mountain states turning into Tesla country when all those people (like me) used to Subaru or FWD cars are fishtailing and complaining (like me) about it. I agree that "feeling safe" is not as important as "being safe", and to me I could be convinced that it corrects itself quickly enough to "be safe", but "feeling safe" does matter too.
 
After a few more snowy drives with the Sottozeros, I still have to agree with Mvdaog, at least in part. Having driven several Subaru's (Outback and Forester only), FWD (most recently Bolt and Jetta), and now the MY, it seems clear that temporary loss of traction occurs more often with the RWD biased MY. We've had until lately hardly any snow this year so I haven't been able to play around nearly as much as I'd like, but I do feel like the off road assist may help it not fishtail as often. It does seem to compensate when loss of rear traction occurs, and it probably isn't as unsafe as it feels, but as Bjorn noted in the video way upthread, I'd still rather not have the 0.5 second "oh, sh*t" feeling occur while driving up a mountain pass. For me plowing through corners was a rare problem with FWDs or Subaru's, but fishtailing (even though short-lived) happens often.

[...]

I have to say that my own experience has been the opposite. My Subaru AWD Legacy Wagon fishtailed pretty easily and pretty widely, unless you knew how to modulate it (which, however, was easy to learn and soon became instinctive - that Subaru was a great winter car if you drove it properly), while my Model 3 really does not fishtail at all, beyond an occasional momentary wiggle if you really push it.

I appreciate that I am interloping as a Model 3 owner in a Model Y forum (sorry). I would not think the experience would be all that different between the Model Y and the Model 3 in this respect, but perhaps I am wrong.
 
I have to say that my own experience has been the opposite. My Subaru AWD Legacy Wagon fishtailed pretty easily and pretty widely, unless you knew how to modulate it (which, however, was easy to learn and soon became instinctive - that Subaru was a great winter car if you drove it properly), while my Model 3 really does not fishtail at all, beyond an occasional momentary wiggle if you really push it.

I appreciate that I am interloping as a Model 3 owner in a Model Y forum (sorry). I would not think the experience would be all that different between the Model Y and the Model 3 in this respect, but perhaps I am wrong.

I've definitely gone the other way too and posted into the Model 3 forums, as I would also think it would be the same. At least some M3 owners seem to have the same impressions as I do (there's a thread begging for "snow mode" for example), but I think some feel the same as you do as well. I also wonder if snow characteristics play a role? I don't know what BC (probably depends on where in BC) vs. Ottawa snow is like, but we are definitely on the dry side of snow in Utah compared to PNW folks or NY. I also wonder if terrain (i.e. steepness here) makes it more of a visible issue, as I haven't noticed issues on snowy flat drives as much, which you'd expect.
 
And we need more MY snow shots. View attachment 636731

Hi, from Mill Creek! I got to play last week in the snow as well, ended up driving down to Seattle Saturday morning. MYP w/Hakka R3 SUVs.

plv7z9DweONZEGNOj-6nZDrtPh_ZbmPNIpfxKC3f_U5Co1zfzcwEEslw4nxkkmwVamXsF6-aZP0aUz10OvIwoY8kqZuMxlzdsMcBuKep8VUDWEShrvrhLNQoTAcNnfKzJm4U0NEeYtMFXrzwECiXf3-K4dXyOtaWOyQtYnpyDJZR7Ehsp2jAlsYFTdXRQugcveJ9eztJFT7Gq_1iyFI8x4bHi2bBhLBpDXGE3qkWKv4SVa3wgGzZVBjzMSlqjXvNySwE-Gy3VA54scrEolJvZr2TQFzJJtOjVSqHcIUo6h0kNJ88Ip9OOSiFtKE4RkpMWrdyb2PCjzMWd0xtg1_TD4v-k-2YT0Wmk2PpchL5vYydDFUehwEzPOTxCNcR3DjlzFsJnzNWPiW_A0xs35esrnIUgDrhKBK1I-3Bo5bQrayvK5yvuTf6lc4khz8jz4qKmGzcvTpAt2e_XxCm23KPsfB21sFscJF0PUQqJhz4J2BAyoeeIHNZrC8BjKIastlyHh_51_3oVQduEMWmbJzlvrDe1bGNS5AZdfX7Y93OcpkRwjnkvs00ngzjsxX2-qFxydpnPrYUYUcSKaDrTT8j0RJvBrWoNpMkLjDZ15DAsEJf9We6QXVDERmwnx56CTCmP2IRg3a79Kvj8GroxvcJbVZIWMU4o47xrGxjiFwSDZgf6M2oZ8QEXqMyPtPvGqQ=w1920-h864-no


I am an official "Subaru Ambassador."]

Hi, fellow Subaru Ambassador! Outback owner here and I will say, the Outback is just more predictable in snow. I want to go this way, it goes. I want to stop, it stops, etc. Overall, it just feels more planted. There isn't any oh $%# moments, just pure go, which some people may find boring.
 
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Hi, from Mill Creek! I got to play last week in the snow as well, ended up driving down to Seattle Saturday morning. MYP w/Hakka R3 SUVs.

plv7z9DweONZEGNOj-6nZDrtPh_ZbmPNIpfxKC3f_U5Co1zfzcwEEslw4nxkkmwVamXsF6-aZP0aUz10OvIwoY8kqZuMxlzdsMcBuKep8VUDWEShrvrhLNQoTAcNnfKzJm4U0NEeYtMFXrzwECiXf3-K4dXyOtaWOyQtYnpyDJZR7Ehsp2jAlsYFTdXRQugcveJ9eztJFT7Gq_1iyFI8x4bHi2bBhLBpDXGE3qkWKv4SVa3wgGzZVBjzMSlqjXvNySwE-Gy3VA54scrEolJvZr2TQFzJJtOjVSqHcIUo6h0kNJ88Ip9OOSiFtKE4RkpMWrdyb2PCjzMWd0xtg1_TD4v-k-2YT0Wmk2PpchL5vYydDFUehwEzPOTxCNcR3DjlzFsJnzNWPiW_A0xs35esrnIUgDrhKBK1I-3Bo5bQrayvK5yvuTf6lc4khz8jz4qKmGzcvTpAt2e_XxCm23KPsfB21sFscJF0PUQqJhz4J2BAyoeeIHNZrC8BjKIastlyHh_51_3oVQduEMWmbJzlvrDe1bGNS5AZdfX7Y93OcpkRwjnkvs00ngzjsxX2-qFxydpnPrYUYUcSKaDrTT8j0RJvBrWoNpMkLjDZ15DAsEJf9We6QXVDERmwnx56CTCmP2IRg3a79Kvj8GroxvcJbVZIWMU4o47xrGxjiFwSDZgf6M2oZ8QEXqMyPtPvGqQ=w1920-h864-no




Hi, fellow Subaru Ambassador! Outback owner here and I will say, the Outback is just more predictable in snow. I want to go this way, it goes. I want to stop, it stops, etc. Overall, it just feels more planted. There isn't any oh $%# moments, just pure go, which some people may find boring.

Former Outback owner here. Great car, and the recent versions are much quieter and nicer. My 2013 Outback drove us crazy with road and engine noise.
I have driven my MY LR AWD in snow, and tested it in parking lot frollies. It's fine - the computers kick in and it would be very hard to crash in my opinion. This is in California Sierra conditions, which in general are pretty benign. Also, I have the Vredestein Quatrac Pros, and they feel great.
For those who like to have fun, just gas it - you'll get a momentary slide, then no matter how much you push on the "gas" pedal the computers won't let you do anything crazy. They literally take over and won't let you go faster than traction permits.
So far, no issues with "regen fishtailing" and we came down Donner pass with the road totally snow covered.

So, if it was the storm of the century and I wanted to brave it for the ultimate powder day (think Kirkwood with the 88 closed) would I take the Tesla over the Subaru? Of course not. So, how extreme do you need to be? For me, driving up carbon neutral (I charge with my solar panels and 100% renewable), and charging for free at my local ski area, with auto pilot driving me up the road, I'll take the Tessie 98.5% of the time. And like I said, so far, it's really solid and fun in the snow.
Caveat: this is only with a few snowy days. I'll admit I haven't spent weeks on snowy roads, only a few snowy drives. YMMV
 
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After a few more snowy drives with the Sottozeros, I still have to agree with Mvdaog, at least in part. Having driven several Subaru's (Outback and Forester only), FWD (most recently Bolt and Jetta), and now the MY, it seems clear that temporary loss of traction occurs more often with the RWD biased MY. We've had until lately hardly any snow this year so I haven't been able to play around nearly as much as I'd like, but I do feel like the off road assist may help it not fishtail as often. It does seem to compensate when loss of rear traction occurs, and it probably isn't as unsafe as it feels, but as Bjorn noted in the video way upthread, I'd still rather not have the 0.5 second "oh, sh*t" feeling occur while driving up a mountain pass. For me plowing through corners was a rare problem with FWDs or Subaru's, but fishtailing (even though short-lived) happens often.



I'm not sure this applies in "real life", as I'd imagine rally car drivers may not mind something that's less stable(esp to an average driver), as long as they can get around the corner faster. Obviously this all also very much depending on driver capability/experience/different cars they're used to. My last RWD car was a 1979 Pontiac Bonneville Safari wagon so there you go. Is the old maxim "FWD is safer than RWD in the snow" not true anymore? Maybe it was always an oversimplification but I do think for an average driver correcting for plowing is more natural than for fishtailing, and it's easier to pull than push a car up hill in snow.

I love my MY (apart from this) and want Tesla to succeed in cold weather states. To me it seems beyond silly that with all the complaints they've had from M3 and now MY AWD owners that they don't have a slight front-biased "snow mode" with a warning badge on range reduction or what have you. It's supposed to snow here some more for a few days and will hit the passes playing more with "off road assist", but it would seem preferable to have the snow mode option keep traction control on etc...

People these days (like me) are used to FWD or more neutral AWD systems, particularly in cold weather areas. I just don't see Utah and other mountain states turning into Tesla country when all those people (like me) used to Subaru or FWD cars are fishtailing and complaining (like me) about it. I agree that "feeling safe" is not as important as "being safe", and to me I could be convinced that it corrects itself quickly enough to "be safe", but "feeling safe" does matter too.
FWD isn't really safer than RWD in snow (certainly can offer better traction because the weight of the engine is over the front axle), it's just that you don't deal with snap oversteer when the rear gets light and rotates. That being said, would you rather hit the tree with the back of your car (RWD), or drive straight into it (FWD)?

Yes, most are used to Front-biased AWD and FWD cars in general.

It's just a new style of driving, but it's not as extreme as people may think in the moment.

I would love if we got part of Track Mode's capability to adjust torque distribution. Just moving it to 30:70 would make it even more fun and there would be less wiggle for you guys.

I have to say that my own experience has been the opposite. My Subaru AWD Legacy Wagon fishtailed pretty easily and pretty widely, unless you knew how to modulate it (which, however, was easy to learn and soon became instinctive - that Subaru was a great winter car if you drove it properly), while my Model 3 really does not fishtail at all, beyond an occasional momentary wiggle if you really push it.

I appreciate that I am interloping as a Model 3 owner in a Model Y forum (sorry). I would not think the experience would be all that different between the Model Y and the Model 3 in this respect, but perhaps I am wrong.
Agreed. It is the same experience, I owned both.

Hi, fellow Subaru Ambassador! Outback owner here and I will say, the Outback is just more predictable in snow. I want to go this way, it goes. I want to stop, it stops, etc. Overall, it just feels more planted. There isn't any oh $%# moments, just pure go, which some people may find boring.
::Subie Wave::
 
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