TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Winter: Parking outside without overnight charging

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by maduarte, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. maduarte

    maduarte Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2016
    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Northampton, MA
    Hello everyone - I have a fairly specific question and haven't been able to find posts on this particular situation. I am thinking of buying a Tesla S 60D and am aware that in the winter range will be reduced due to battery efficiency and heating expense. I have also read that the batteries must be warmed up before they can be charged, and many deal with this by keeping the car garaged and/or charging just before used.

    Since I live in a condo with off-street outdoor parking, and it would be cumbersome to install a charging setup, I was planning to use a CHAdeMO charger at work, say once a week, to charge the battery; my commute is 20 miles/day roundtrip, so I expect this to be fine in other seasons. However, I'm concerned about the effect on the range of keeping the car outdoors at cold temperatures without charging each night. I've read that it still makes sense to preheat the car before leaving in the morning, but have found little on how this affects the range if such preheating is done without having the car charging.

    Any pointers would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!
     
  2. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Messages:
    3,773
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    If you have a CHAdeMO at work, why charge just once/week? And can you at least plug into 120V on the other days if that's all it's accessible to you? Also be aware that many CHAdeMO stations automatically turn off after 30 minutes.
     
  3. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2013
    Messages:
    3,003
    Location:
    Delaware
    It depends on the conditions and settings, of course. I think the preheating of both cabin and battery can draw a maximum of around 10 kW?

    If so, you're losing a kWh every 6 minutes of preheating (less once things get warmed up) - in winter that's probably 2 miles of range every 6 minutes, in summer more like 3 miles.
     
  4. maduarte

    maduarte Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2016
    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Northampton, MA
    Certainly the way to address this would be to charge more often, but I work at a large public university and the charger is not close to my building, so this would be a stop on the way home. Once a week seems manageable, more often might become cumbersome. It's all about *how* much the range would change.

    At home there are no outlets outdoors, so charging would be cumbersome even at 110V. I'd rather use the CHAdeMO more often than having to deal with the condo board, etc.
     
  5. William13

    William13 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2011
    Messages:
    943
    Location:
    South Bend
    You will need to use the charger twice a week. You may be able to decrease this to once a week if you use range mode all winter. The car will automatically use power to heat the batteries while driving unless you engage range mode. Cold batteries decrease accelleration and regeneration.

    Expect about 30% reduction in range.
     
  6. Canuck

    Canuck Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Messages:
    3,942
    Location:
    South Surrey, BC
    #6 Canuck, Sep 11, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
    Not only that but also because cold air is heavier than warm air, so it makes for more resistance for the car to drive through. I remember reading this when I was concerned about range in the winter for long distance travel:

    "I purchased an app at the Mac App Store called Vehicle Energy Use Simulator for $9.99. It is really slick. You can "build" a Model S or any other car in minutes (lots of other cars are already in the app), simulate driving conditions including outside temperature, and see how these affect energy efficiency. Cold air is heavier than warm air, and therefor resistance is always greater when it is cold, but by how much? If this program is accurate, with all other things being equal, driving 70 MPH when the outdoor air is 35F compared to 95F will reduce the range by almost exactly 20%. It's about the same order of magnitude for all cars. It's easy to use and let's you trial and error many different driving conditions."

    Cold weather range questions | Tesla Motors
     
  7. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,791
    Location:
    California
    When battery is cold, charging speed (and acceleration power) will be reduced temporarily until it heats up. Range is not affected.
    Since you will be charging at work, the battery should be warm when you get there so just charge when you arrive and that shouldn't be a problem.
    Heating the car takes energy but I don't pre-heat the car... just turn on the seat heaters (get the cold weather package) and your bum is warm in a few minutes.
     
  8. Canuck

    Canuck Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Messages:
    3,942
    Location:
    South Surrey, BC
    The cold weather package is only needed for the rear seats. The front seats come with heaters without that package. But you also get other things so you may want to get it.
     
  9. maduarte

    maduarte Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2016
    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Northampton, MA
    Thanks for the pointers guys. My thinking at this point is that the one useful component of the sub-zero weather package is the steering wheel warmer, as I will seldom have back seat passengers. Also it seems that 30% would mean charging twice a week some weeks, which I may grudgingly agree to...

    I'm now curious if anyone here has followed such a setup (no overnight charging in winter weather with outdoor parking) and how it has gone for them :)
     
  10. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2015
    Messages:
    708
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Longshot: Is there 110V near a car park at the university?

    Will they INSTALL something for you? Surely they ought to be encouraging EV use?
     
  11. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,791
    Location:
    California
    I received my 85D in Feb and didn't have a garage. I live in the mountains in California with lots of snow. I did have a charging station but only plugged it in about once a week. Never preheated the car. Worked well.
    The heated steering wheel is my favorite feature. We use it all the time in winter. It is so nice to get into a cold car and have a warm steering wheel (and seat).
     
  12. maduarte

    maduarte Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2016
    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Northampton, MA
    Thanks - would you say that the 30% range reduction in winter bears out in your case?
     
  13. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,791
    Location:
    California
    The range is reduced because of heating demands and it taking more energy to push through snow. The battery itself recovers as it warms up during use.
    I've never done a rigorous study but I have driven a lot through snow. I'd say 30% is high, probably worst case. One particular trip over Spooner summit in a storm with 6" of snow and slush only reduced rated range by about 20% but it was also 1200' elevation gain.
     
  14. maduarte

    maduarte Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2016
    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Northampton, MA
    Though I would wrap up this thread - I jumped on the end-of-quarter sale and got a 75D (delivered yesterday), which also mitigates a bit my concerns about range. Thanks again to everyone for your advice!
     
  15. mmccord

    mmccord Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2014
    Messages:
    765
    Location:
    Pine Bush, NY
    Fair warning: When it gets below 10F outside at night you are going to use way more rated miles on your commute. I have a long commute (75+ miles one way), and the first 20 miles with a cold battery burns through half the energy I use for the whole trip. >1kwh/mile is not uncommon for the first few miles. That battery heater gets hungry. I'm in NY, so MA should be similar. We only get those kinds of temperatures for a few weeks per year. Of course, I preheat in my garage so I only get hit on the way home.

    Congrats on your new car, and good luck!
     
  16. Gremlin

    Gremlin Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2014
    Messages:
    56
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Before we moved back into our home, (rented out) I did exactly what you described for 14 months. I charged my car on public charges for 14 months from 10:30 until I drove off it sat in the cold. You'll be okay. The trick is the summer. Don't store the car in direct sun at 90 percent full. Battery health from Army study I read. The electron like free space to move (cliff note version)
     
  17. Joer293

    Joer293 MODEL X P100DL

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    Maryland, United States
    75D fire sale, That is exactly what I would have suggested to you. Welcome to Tesla. Now, I'd just recommend some good wax, or opticoat. Without a warm engine, the snow and ice never melt enough to push off the hood as easy. Wax it up. Heavy snow will dent the aluminum hood.
     

Share This Page