Winter Storm Nick Jonas - What if your Model S was on one of the closed roads?

[green1]

Bought one of these on sale for $19.99 the other day at EMS.

I carry an old folding army shovel, it's secured inside my frunk by velcro straps. (It sits on the driver's side, on the passenger side I have an air compressor and tire patch kit. 3 fleece blankets, a touque, and a set of gloves live in the driver's side trunk well. Flashlight with orange traffic directing cone live in the glove box)

 

[jerry33]

Running out of gas, or running out of charge are no different, and at idle an ICE will run quite a while on a tank of fuel, they also tend to carry more fuel than an EV carries charge, so are more likely to be in the top portion of it when you get stranded.
The ev doesn't have carbon monoxide though, and is more efficient at directing the heat in to the cabin instead of out the radiator.

An EV driver is also more likely to be aware of how much they have left.

 

[Bangor Bob]

I've driven during many winters in very rural northern Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and British Columbia, often in rental cars with questionable maintenance. If the ICE runs out of gas your time to live is about thirty minutes unless you have a candle and blankets.

Is this assuming that you've somehow become soaking wet, the windows are stuck rolled down, and you're in summer clothes? Because otherwise I've apparently died several times over the years...

Now that said, a shovel, blanket, warning light or triangle, a warm hat (probably the most important thing) and some water are definitely good things to have in the car in winter. Keeping the water unfrozen is a bit of a trick around here in January and February.

 

[Todd Burch]

The IT guy in my can't just take no for an answer - any supporting response?

There is a reserve built into the battery. After the car "shuts off" and doesn't allow you to pull any more power, it goes into a deep sleep mode that will last for another approx. 30 days:

http://www.cnet.com/news/tesla-you-cant-brick-model-s-batteries/

The story is a few years old now (written about initial Model S's), but still applies today.

 

[CatB]

@Bangor Bob
Somewhat off-topic, but props to your police dept for their PSA to snow-ninnies down here

 

[Saghost]

Running out of gas, or running out of charge are no different, and at idle an ICE will run quite a while on a tank of fuel, they also tend to carry more fuel than an EV carries charge, so are more likely to be in the top portion of it when you get stranded.
The ev doesn't have carbon monoxide though, and is more efficient at directing the heat in to the cabin instead of out the radiator.

EVs "idle" for a lot longer on a "full tank."

I'm not sure I understand you logic on the "more likely to be in the top part when stranded." I don't know how you drove ICE cars, but I normally used the whole tank range I felt I safely could - a car with a 400 mile range I'd drive for ~350 miles before refueling. I would expect to drive an EV the same way - so I'd think that either one would be equally likely to be at any point in the range (I suppose on a road trip with an EV, the benefits of being at lower states of charge (faster charging) might have a slight effect, but not much on a percentage basis.)

I've never seen a definitive number for a Model S, but the Volt idles at about 400W without HVAC and I think the S should be pretty close. That means that an 85 kWh car (76 usable) at 50% charge would have (76000/2 = 38000/400) = ~95 hours of continuous standby time without HVAC.

I don't have hard numbers for a direct comparison, but most of the ICE cars I've seen idle at about .5 gph. A 2014 E350 (random quasi-competitive ICE car) has a 21 gallon tank. Using the generic .5 gph and 10.5 gallons usable, that's 21 hours of idling.

Of course, the E350 has heat for that time without noticeably more draw, the Tesla doesn't. I don't know the Tesla seat heaters, either - but the Volt's draw about 45W each on high and again I'd think they are similar. So if the seat heaters are enough warmth, that'd be (38000/(400+90)) = ~77.5 hours - three times as long.

If the heating had to run wide open at 6 kw, it'd only last 6 hours or so, but I doubt that would be necessary to keep people warm. A 1 kW sustained (or net average from cycling) heater draw would produce about 27 hours of idle time.

Of course, the real duration champions of this situation are plug in hybrids with electric/coolant hybrid heaters like the Volt and the Energi twins. They get to cycle the engine, running it only when they need it, and keep ~2/3 of the fuel energy for cabin heat, - half directly from the cooling water and the other half converted to electricity and used to run the electric heater when the engine is off.
Walter

 

[Father Bill]

I carry with me the following articles just in case of an extended stay in the MS due to inclement weather

AAA Roadside Emergency Kit w/ Compact Shovel ($42.89 Amazon)
12 Volt Electric Blanket ($21.45 Amazon)

Having been stuck a couple of times in an ICE these seemed a good idea then. Even more when I would need to stretch the battery on the MS.

Haven't had to use them yet, but it is better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

Peace,

Father Bill

 

[RDoc]

Unlike an ICE though, a BEV is pretty much impossible to "refuel" on the highway. There won't be people delivering fresh batteries when the snow is finally cleared, so we need to keep in mind how to move the car after the storm.

 

[cinergi]

well I disagree with Bjorn. the car has an 8.5kWh heater. sometimes when I charge to 100% then decide not to go anywhere I strategically unplug it (or just flip the breaker switch off if i'm too lazy to go outside), then turn the heater on full blast using remote app. It automatically shuts off after 30 minutes so about 30 minutes into it I turn it back on full blast again. After an hour, I lose about 30 miles or so, which is like 10-12% range. that lines up with the power draw from an 8.5kWh heater, so losting about 8.5 kW's. You can easily deplete the battery sitting there for a several hours in the freezing cold with just the heat blasting.

There's no way you'd be running the heat full blast. You need to do so to warm up a cold-soaked car, sure. But not while idling stopped on the highway. You're lucky to draw 25% of that while maintaining temperature in a stopped car. It's important to note the stopped part, too. The car is much easier to keep warm while it's not moving (no air ingress).

 

[clarkbariowa]

There is a reserve built into the battery. After the car "shuts off" and doesn't allow you to pull any more power, it goes into a deep sleep mode that will last for another approx. 30 days:

http://www.cnet.com/news/tesla-you-cant-brick-model-s-batteries/

The story is a few years old now (written about initial Model S's), but still applies today.

So driving around yesterday in 25 degree temps, my wife (with my 11 month old) in the back seats could not get warm. The heat in the back is terrible and now i am kicking myself for not finding a car with the winter package for rear heated seats. So if I was in that stranded situation I would be running the heat full tilt - and probably bring the battery down to 0 quickly. Again I am being realistic here. Not everyone buying these cars (especially the model 3) is going to have the foresight as everyone on this forum. So in reading the cnet article, it says they go into deep sleep mode for up to 30 days. Now could sub zero temps accelerate this and mess with the chemistry potentially bricking the battery in a rapid amount of time?

Scenario:

1. Yelling wife and screaming child
2. Full tilt heat - heated seats - 15 hours
3. battery is dead, rescued by outside forces, leave car to hang out in the snow
4. Finally find a flatbed truck willing to tow the model s to a charger. (4 days later) after all ICE have been rescued most likely
5. Sub zero temps the entire time

Don't get me wrong I love my model S, just playing devils advocate here.

 

[AWDtsla]

So driving around yesterday in 25 degree temps, my wife (with my 11 month old) in the back seats could not get warm. The heat in the back is terrible and now i am kicking myself for not finding a car with the winter package for rear heated seats. So if I was in that stranded situation I would be running the heat full tilt - and probably bring the battery down to 0 quickly. Again I am being realistic here. Not everyone buying these cars (especially the model 3) is going to have the foresight as everyone on this forum. So in reading the cnet article, it says they go into deep sleep mode for up to 30 days. Now could sub zero temps accelerate this and mess with the chemistry potentially bricking the battery in a rapid amount of time?

Scenario:

1. Yelling wife and screaming child
2. Full tilt heat - heated seats - 15 hours
3. battery is dead, rescued by outside forces, leave car to hang out in the snow
4. Finally find a flatbed truck willing to tow the model s to a charger. (4 days later) after all ICE have been rescued most likely
5. Sub zero temps the entire time

Don't get me wrong I love my model S, just playing devils advocate here.

I would recommend the winter package for any car that experiences temperatures colder than 60F.

I'll save my rant about what happens to the heat when you turn on range mode later. Tesla needs to up it's game when it comes to finishing touches like Apple or BMW.

 

[Mattias]

Im not defending ICE-cars here, just stating some facts.

My 2012 Golf 6 1.6 petrol uses (according to the trip-computer) 0.7 liters of fuel per hour at idle. Full tank capacity is 55 liters.

A full tank would give me: 55/0.7=78.6 hours of idling.

Half a tank: (55/2)/0.7=39.3 hours.

A quarter of a tank: (55/4)/0.7=19.6 hours.

10% left: (55*0.1)/0.7=7.9 hours.

I think there is plenty of idle-time to keep warm, unless the tank is almost completely empty.

As for the Model S, I think somebody would have to post the power usage when keeping a steady 22 C or so in the car in the winter so we can calculate. I believe you'd get around the same hour times, because it can utilize the energy from the battery much more efficiently.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Unlike an ICE though, a BEV is pretty much impossible to "refuel" on the highway. There won't be people delivering fresh batteries when the snow is finally cleared, so we need to keep in mind how to move the car after the storm.

This is a key factor. We need more of those AAA charging trucks to address this problem with BEVs that run out of juice in whatever situation.

AAA Colorado Offers L2 Roadside Charging

Or, even L3 ones:

Meet Real Powers $95,000 Mobile Quick Charge Truck

 

[islandbayy]

Just wanted to Chime in on emergency heat usage.

Put range mode on, This, firstly, reduces the power draw of the heating elements. Second, put on Re-Circulation. Why heat cold air to hot, when it uses less power to heat Warm air to hot. Next, turn the thermostat up to maximum temp. This will keep the car from drawing in outside air as often. And finally, turn the fan speed down as low as it will go to maintain a comfortable temp. The car adjusts heating element power as well based on fan speed, even in range mode.

Doing the above, you should be able to keep your heater going for a few days +++ if you started with a full battery.

 

[PaulusdB]

Mobile charging is somehow not offered by Tesla Motors. Maybe V2V (Buddy Loading) resembles V2G (Vehicle to Grid) too much?
Would seem silly to see a stranded Model S or X being brought to life by a BYD e6. Those cars do offer mobile Chademo charging, IIRC.

 

[Todd Burch]

So driving around yesterday in 25 degree temps, my wife (with my 11 month old) in the back seats could not get warm. The heat in the back is terrible and now i am kicking myself for not finding a car with the winter package for rear heated seats.

Really? I have no problem making it uncomfortably warm in the back seats in sub-freezing weather, even without the winter package.

 

[SW2Fiddler]

Why would you blast it constantly?

I imagine there are those that would open a window every hour or so to hang a lit cigarette out. Gotta replace all that heat.
If you don't have to do that, seat heat goes a long way.
My father-in-law was stuck gas-less on an Alaskan highway and eventually burned the seat stuffing to stay alive until a ride came along. Different kind of Seat Heat...

 

[gnxs]

I'll add some unscientific information from a trip a few weeks ago. Parked my 2013 P85 overnight in "camper mode" near the SC in Maumee, OH.

Temp - Single Digits (Farenheit), snowing and VERY windy.

Went to sleep in the back of the car about 10PM with about 250 miles range. Cabin Temp set to 76 degrees (very comfortable), seat heaters off, touch screen set to minimum brightness.

Woke up to plug the car in to the SC at about 7AM with 169 miles range. Looks like I was using ~ 9 miles of rated range for every hour I was parked. That was obviously with the heater running all night to maintain the 76 degree temp setting.

 

[Jaff]

Clark, if you were stopped / stuck and not moving, your wife could return to the front seat with your child...then use the seat heaters full, and only use the cabin heater when required...full tilt heat not required...

So driving around yesterday in 25 degree temps, my wife (with my 11 month old) in the back seats could not get warm. The heat in the back is terrible and now i am kicking myself for not finding a car with the winter package for rear heated seats. So if I was in that stranded situation I would be running the heat full tilt - and probably bring the battery down to 0 quickly. Again I am being realistic here. Not everyone buying these cars (especially the model 3) is going to have the foresight as everyone on this forum. So in reading the cnet article, it says they go into deep sleep mode for up to 30 days. Now could sub zero temps accelerate this and mess with the chemistry potentially bricking the battery in a rapid amount of time?

Scenario:

1. Yelling wife and screaming child
2. Full tilt heat - heated seats - 15 hours
3. battery is dead, rescued by outside forces, leave car to hang out in the snow
4. Finally find a flatbed truck willing to tow the model s to a charger. (4 days later) after all ICE have been rescued most likely
5. Sub zero temps the entire time

Don't get me wrong I love my model S, just playing devils advocate here.

 

[RDoc]

I'll add some unscientific information from a trip a few weeks ago. Parked my 2013 P85 overnight in "camper mode" near the SC in Maumee, OH.

Temp - Single Digits (Farenheit), snowing and VERY windy.

Went to sleep in the back of the car about 10PM with about 250 miles range. Cabin Temp set to 76 degrees (very comfortable), seat heaters off, touch screen set to minimum brightness.

Woke up to plug the car in to the SC at about 7AM with 169 miles range. Looks like I was using ~ 9 miles of rated range for every hour I was parked. That was obviously with the heater running all night to maintain the 76 degree temp setting.

Fascinating, thanks for the story.