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Wireless/inductive charging

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by Kitt, Apr 21, 2014.

  1. Kitt

    Kitt Member

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    #1 Kitt, Apr 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2016
    Hey Tesla folks,

    just wanted to share my opinion on charging infrastructure.
    When the e-car revolution is going to happen,(2020?) i think we would need BETTER stuff than only super-chargers.
    Because the problem with e-cars is that not everybody has a nice garage where he can charge. And who wants to see an ugly cable jungle
    on a street with all the cars parking? Wireless charging tech indeed is very simple and low cost.
    I am a little bit dissapointed that Tesla isnt think of it YET. Since energy losses are very,very low(like 3% at 15cm distance).
    Only thing you need is a very flat coil in the road and one very flat receiver coil on the bottom of the car.
    Frequency of the voltage 50Hz needs to be transformed to few Khz with a variable frequency-drive. Thats all. Basically only a cable
    ending in a spiral.
    Also alignment with the field could be done easily via magnetic sensors. Also small disalignments are not really a problem.
    Additionally the receiver coil should be movable forwards and backwards. All of course automatically. Tesla-style. ha
    Not such a big deal IMO.
    Also from a energy generating POV it will be necessary to charge all vehicles of a country evenly distributed over the day otherwise the power plant
    requirements would be humongous(peak power). (remember, no internal combustion engines means we WILL need more power plants, batteries are not generating energy like ICEs, only storing)
    Example: 1 million e-cars charging at 100kw= 100GW Extra plants needed, or everyone has his own wireless charging unit loading at 500-1000W. Basically trying to charge that amount that you needed the whole day evenly distributed whenever your car stands.
    There are already a few companies selling inductive chraging pads for 2000 dollars.
    But i think we need more of them. MUCH MORE.
    I also like the comfort i hjave to confess. But from infrastructure POV i think this will be THE BEST solution.
    You wont even notice that you are charging everyday. Charging evenly distrubted over a whole country.

    An self-driving alignment feature would be also great.:biggrin:

    What do you guys think?

    - - - Updated - - -

     
  2. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    I think it would be great. One less excuse for those who worry about forgetting to plug in and being stranded. For me it just builds on the "drive it and forget it" style that the Model S creates. I get in, I drive, I get out and walk away without ever pushing or turning anything to start it, shut if off, unlock or lock it. Why not be able to just pull in and walk away knowing that it is charging or will charge as scheduled?

    Some argue that it's not difficult to plug in, they're right, but it's also not difficult to push a button to unlock a car or turn a key, but it is easier and more convenient not to do those things and that's part of what we love. Induction charging would be one more option to love. For higher power charging (i.e. HPWCs and Superchargers) you'd still need the mechanical connection, but for day to day home charging...I think induction is ideal.
     
  3. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    What is the cost for the equipment in the car?
    What is the cost to place one of these in a parking stall with point of sale equipment?
    What is the cost to dig up a garage floor and install this charging system for a homeowner?

    I don't see this as quite so simple as you do. The logistics are huge, and a single installation needs to work for all cars that may want to use it.
    How expensive is it to upgrade?
     
  4. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    <$3000 for a system for the Nissan Leaf that doesn't require digging up the garage floor.
    Pricy, but not outrageous and if the vehicular components came with the car it could be significantly cheaper.
    Order | Plugless Power
     
  5. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    Not bad. However, I don't want to be paying for a less efficient method to charge the car.
    So if it is built into the car, I am paying for it. The question of how much the car equipment costs is an important one.

    Don't get me wrong, I love the convenience aspects. But the costs need to be a part of the equation.
     
  6. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    I think the OP's point is that it should be an option. Like the twin chargers, you don't want it, don't buy it. Don't want the HPWC, don't buy it. Don't want the induction, don't buy it. But if it were available for maybe $2000 option on a $100k car, I'd probably give it serious consideration...and I think a lot of people would.
     
  7. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    From an engineering perspective, you're right (although 3% loss is still pretty significant compared to the loss in a wired connection - losing another 600W on a 20 kW connection means losing 2 miles per hour of charging to the inefficiency).

    Most importantly, the issue isn't engineering - it's a political issue:

    * standardization - every manufacturer wants the "first-mover" advantage of establishing the standards. Tesla's Superchargers are car-specific, but can be dismantled and removed easily, leaving only a standard parking spot or upgraded as necessary. Installation of the embedded charging loops may

    * perception of safety - 15 cm gap? "What happens when my pet decides to hide under the car?" Nevermind the reality - even if you can make it as safe and foolproof as possible, there's going to be a real debate over the safety of having a 10 kW+ transmission over a gap that might have a child's hand or pet moving through. "Will it fry my pet?"

    * proving it elsewhere first: induction charging is PERFECT for mobile devices, yet it still hasn't caught on for a number of reasons -- the two I mention above, as well as the cost of it. Before jumping to 20 kW, you'll probably have to prove it at 10.5W.
     
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  8. RandyS

    RandyS Fan of Elon

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    I think your losses will be larger than 3%...I'm reading 6-8% from different sites, even if you're perfectly aligned (and more if you're off a little bit)...

    I think the only place where this makes sense is in commercial fleets where you have drivers who are not used to plugging in. But for the rest of us where plugging in is something we do all the time, I don't really think the losses overcome the convenience factor...

    At least now if I'm iced at a public charger I might be able to stretch the cord or use an adapter. But if an ice car parks on top of the wireless transmitter, then I'm totally out of luck....
     
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  9. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    Hmmmm, we could start a rumor that if a car doesn't use the energy being 'beamed' to it the car will be incinerated! That might cut down on the ICEing:tongue:
     
  10. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    There is a case to be made that induction charging could make up for some of the inefficiency in other portions of the system... i.e., if you took into account the losses that are typical in today's wired charger power supplies, you could create wireless induction charging with roughly the same efficiency. See the following presentation from TI:

    Why Not A Wire? The case for wireless power - Wireless Power Consortium

    Granted, only 3.5W and not exactly unbiased, but it will tell you at least where people are looking.

    The 3% inefficiency is based on a few lab studies which may never see real-world conditions applied. It's probably realistic to figure 10% loss if you want to use today's architecture and just replace the wire with a wireless induction coupling.
     
  11. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    I talked with a sales rep at Plugless Power and he said their system has about a 5% inductive loss. Apparently they are working on a Model S version.
     
  12. hiroshiy

    hiroshiy Active Member

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    Where does the 3% lost energy go? Heat in both coils?
     
  13. Kitt

    Kitt Member

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    Yeah i would see this as a buy option not included. Sure the communities would have to take some workload to put those things into the parking places on the streets.
    I see this as a long term goal.
    I dislike the idea to go every week to a supercharger and sit there for 20 minutes. For now its good and there is no other possibility but i just want to push the discussion a bit.
    Safety is certainly an issue. Some safety mechanism should be build in(nowadays you get awful cheap sensors). But the current is induced in the coil by a magnetic field and the receiver is isolated.
    The only thing that could happen is that a metal would heat up like an armband clock.
    It would be also of great use if the receiver coil would also move downwards so that the gap would close to zero. Automatic charging has certainly its advantages and is cheap andy easy to realize.
    At least more convenient than a moving trunk door.
    Certainly a country would have to invest a billion or so to connect everybodies parking place to a wirelss pad.
     
  14. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    Where else could it go?

    I had a wireless charger for my iPhone (iQi) but have stopped using it because of: 1) occasional failures (phone at 5% in the morning, not cool)
    2) heat buildup (probably degraded phone battery quite a bit quicker)
    3) inefficient, espescially from low SOC it took probably x2 that of cabled charge (5W charger).

    Wireless charge for the car would have to be really good for me to consider it. Minimal problem to plug in IMO.
     
  15. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    I'm good with it being an option.
    And I like the image as a long term goal.
    I just don't see the infrastructure being built out in public places.
    Your "billion or so" to connect everybody's parking spots is incredibly generous.

    200 million cars. If the equipment cost were $2000 that is $400 Billion dollars and there are a lot more public spots than that.
    Add in the cost for digging up asphalt/concrete, running the cabling, etc.

    This will, IMO start as an expensive addon and will only be installed at high priced parking locations.
    As the price comes down it may get wider acceptance. But the cost to install at public parking spots is going to be the biggest hurdle.
     
  16. Kitt

    Kitt Member

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    ok, ok is see the point. There is a small differnce between 1 and 400. Obviously we need to find a cheaper solution. haha
    I just love the convenience and to dream of it. :cool:
    Elon Musk is so clever, why he just find and answer to that. hehe
     
  17. notailpipe2112

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    It's pretty hard to imagine that Telsa has not been doing some R&D in this area as it would be such a fit for the overall user experience...if the charge losses were truly minimized, and the process was 100% safe. It would be a no-brainer to put a Tesla-specific solution in place for the average Tesla owner that likes to keep things easy and simple (like myself).
     
  18. Kitt

    Kitt Member

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    #18 Kitt, Apr 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2016
    i am pretty sure they did. Musk mentioned in an interview that he doesnt like it fornow.
    Really to put sth like 50 wireless pads into a parking lane it would need a fast and big solution to cut the price down to 100$ per parking charger.
    Sth like this.
    The faster and quicker it can be executed the cheaper. Asphalt cutting sawing machine exist....etc......
     
  19. Kitt

    Kitt Member

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    #19 Kitt, Apr 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2016
  20. hiroshiy

    hiroshiy Active Member

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    Thanks. Then if we charge at 6kW like public chargers, lost 3% would be 90W in each side. Not a problem.
    If we charge 60kW then we need a cooling solution on both ends.
     

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