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With the eminent arrival of FSD Subscription... HW 3 upgrade?

Mar 26, 2021
48
31
Gilbert, AZ
Will Tesla upgrade cars for free to HW 3 with the FSD Subscription? Perhaps you would have to do a year subscription contract, or pay a year up front to get the free upgrade? Or can the cars with HW 2.5 do FSD already?
 

DanCar

Active Member
Oct 2, 2013
2,050
2,151
SF Bay Area
>Will Tesla upgrade cars for free to HW 3 with the FSD Subscription?
No

>Perhaps you would have to do a year subscription contract, or pay a year up front to get the free upgrade?
Maybe as a quarter end sales incentive.

>Or can the cars with HW 2.5 do FSD already?
No

Will be interesting if Tesla does offer an upgrade option other than paying $10k. I'm thinking a one time fee of $2,500 for an upgrade is possible. Otherwise your best bet, is buying something used or new with FSD or AP3. Keep in mind the same problem may manifest itself a couple of years down the road with AP4.
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,532
3,343
Seattle, WA
Tesla's Website, since October 2016:
All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.
We need to stop calling it an "upgrade"- Tesla, in writing, promised that the HW was there from day 1. It's on them to remedy that at no cost to us if it's not true. In many ways they know this- they have been installing HW3 as part of the MCU2 upgrade even for cars that didn't have FSD. They don't even mention it to you as part of the update, they just do it while they are in there.

There is a class action lawyer salivating at the idea that Tesla will try and charge for any HW2/2.5 upgrade to HW3 as part of subscribing to or buying FSD.
 

Need

Active Member
Nov 22, 2017
3,044
2,352
Rancho Cucamonga
Tesla's Website, since October 2016:

We need to stop calling it an "upgrade"- Tesla, in writing, promised that the HW was there from day 1. It's on them to remedy that at no cost to us if it's not true. In many ways they know this- they have been installing HW3 as part of the MCU2 upgrade even for cars that didn't have FSD. They don't even mention it to you as part of the update, they just do it while they are in there.

There is a class action lawyer salivating at the idea that Tesla will try and charge for any HW2/2.5 upgrade to HW3 as part of subscribing to or buying FSD.
Our service center did mention it when we did the MCU 1 to 2 upgrade on our MX. The service rep said we get HW3 as part of the upgrade and it was in the invoice. The current version of FSD is really just EAP + traffic light/stop sign auto stop. I even get a separate notice on the app saying that if we upgrade MX to FSD, we will only get traffic light/stop sign function. We also have a M3 with EAP 2.5HW and we did not get that notification. I am thinking if I pay for FSD $99 for the M3, I get nothing in return as you don't see traffic lights on the M3 2.5HW display.
 

ammulder

3P, X ordered
Supporting Member
Apr 11, 2019
1,431
5,405
Philly area
Tesla's Website, since October 2016:

We need to stop calling it an "upgrade"- Tesla, in writing, promised that the HW was there from day 1. It's on them to remedy that at no cost to us if it's not true. In many ways they know this- they have been installing HW3 as part of the MCU2 upgrade even for cars that didn't have FSD. They don't even mention it to you as part of the update, they just do it while they are in there.

There is a class action lawyer salivating at the idea that Tesla will try and charge for any HW2/2.5 upgrade to HW3 as part of subscribing to or buying FSD.
Eh. If you buy FSD outright you get the hardware. So there’s definitely an option of get FSD without paying separately for upgrades. I don’t think they should be obligated to do a $1500 upgrade if you subscribe for one month. I think it would be completely reasonable to do the upgrade if you subscribe for a year, however — if they were to offer subscription terms like that. Could be a win/win — if you commit to a year or two of the subscription, you get the hardware and perhaps lock in a subscription price for that term, and Tesla gets the ongoing revenue guarantee. I guess I’m not sure why they haven’t offered that!
 
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Barklikeadog

Active Member
Jul 13, 2016
1,881
1,904
PA
Eh. If you buy FSD outright you get the hardware. So there’s definitely an option of get FSD without paying separately for upgrades. I don’t think they should be obligated to do a $1500 upgrade if you subscribe for one month. I think it would be completely reasonable to do the upgrade if you subscribe for a year, however — if they were to offer subscription terms like that. Could be a win/win — if you commit to a year or two of the subscription, you get the hardware and perhaps lock in a subscription price for that term, and Tesla gets the ongoing revenue guarantee. I guess I’m not sure why they haven’t offered that!
I don't see much wiggle room. The cars were sold as having full self driving hardware.
No 'regulatory approval' or any of those exceptions.
 

aregel

New Member
Jul 18, 2021
4
12
Germany
Sorry, here is the proof. The embedded video looks like all the other videos posted last week ;)

 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,532
3,343
Seattle, WA
Our service center did mention it when we did the MCU 1 to 2 upgrade on our MX. The service rep said we get HW3 as part of the upgrade and it was in the invoice.
And they charged you $500 to do it.

I don’t think they should be obligated to do a $1500 upgrade if you subscribe for one month.
They weren't until they said "all cars have the HW needed." At that point, they obligated themselves. Nobody forced them too, and it's not my fault they did.
 
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KArnold

Member
May 21, 2017
752
807
Columbus OH
How about they just stop offering subscriptions? Problem solved.
Or stop offering if you don't have AP3 hardware. Not right of course (Tesla most certainly is not known for doing the right thing) but probably legal.
 

ammulder

3P, X ordered
Supporting Member
Apr 11, 2019
1,431
5,405
Philly area
So, why shall you pay again $1,500 for what was already promised?

Again, if they took the subscription away, your argument evaporates. If the only option is to pay $10k+, then the needed hardware upgrade is included, nobody complains.

So what we have here is they offer a cheaper option that people have been asking for, and people then say the cheaper option they’re offering is no fair. So, either you don’t subscribe if you don’t like it, or they take subscription back off the market and you only have the old pay up front option, which everybody agreed was fair. Would that be better?
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,532
3,343
Seattle, WA
Or stop offering if you don't have AP3 hardware. Not right of course (Tesla most certainly is not known for doing the right thing) but probably legal.
The car was advertised as capable. They'd get sued for sure if they didn't offer FSD to cars advertised as capable, as it would be immediately clear that the car is not capable.

So what we have here is they offer a cheaper option that people have been asking for, and people then say the cheaper option they’re offering is no fair. So, either you don’t subscribe if you don’t like it, or they take subscription back off the market and you only have the old pay up front option, which everybody agreed was fair. Would that be better?
Yes, it would. Tesla advertised ALL cars since 2016 as capable. They're the ones that were mistaken. They're the ones that used this marketing to encourage us to buy cars. It's up to them to make that true.

So yeah, they either offer FSD subs to everyone for the same price, or nobody, like they do with FSD purchases. It's not OK for Tesla to pick and choose based on how easy or cheap it is for them. I want a $99 subscription too, and I bought a car that is FSD capable. Why should someone that bought in 2019 be able to have that option, while my Dec 2018 car cannot without a large cost increase? I didn't sign up in 2018 to be a Guinea pig so everyone after me could pay less. We're all in this together- you wouldn't have HW3 in your car unless unless those earlier than you had HW2 for a while.

Ask yourself- why were they not charging a premium for FSD purchases if you had old hardware? Because they know they advertised the car as capable of FSD. The FSD subscription is no different, it's the same software.

The numbers here are stupid also- It's maybe $500 for Tesla to upgrade a car. There are about 1:10th as many HW2/2.5 cars as HW3 cars. Tesla can't afford to just get everyone to HW3 and shut down HW2/2.5?
 
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Barklikeadog

Active Member
Jul 13, 2016
1,881
1,904
PA
The car was advertised as capable. They'd get sued for sure if they didn't offer FSD to cars advertised as capable, as it would be immediately clear that the car is not capable.


Yes, it would. Tesla advertised ALL cars since 2016 as capable. They're the ones that were mistaken. They're the ones that used this marketing to encourage us to buy cars. It's up to them to make that true.

So yeah, they either offer FSD subs to everyone for the same price, or nobody, like they do with FSD purchases. It's not OK for Tesla to pick and choose based on how easy or cheap it is for them. I want a $99 subscription too, and I bought a car that is FSD capable. Why should someone that bought in 2019 be able to have that option, while my Dec 2018 car cannot without a large cost increase? I didn't sign up in 2018 to be a Guinea pig so everyone after me could pay less. We're all in this together- you wouldn't have HW3 in your car unless unless those earlier than you had HW2 for a while.

Ask yourself- why were they not charging a premium for FSD purchases if you had old hardware? Because they know they advertised the car as capable of FSD. The FSD subscription is no different, it's the same software.

The numbers here are stupid also- It's maybe $500 for Tesla to upgrade a car. There are about 1:10th as many HW2/2.5 cars as HW3 cars. Tesla can't afford to just get everyone to HW3 and shut down HW2/2.5?
It wasn't that long ago where the fanboys would blast 'stealerships' for similar stuff. And we would hear about 'if it's not written, it doesn't matter' when discussing tweets/promises.

My popcorn is ready.
 

mrkymarc

Member
Apr 14, 2016
54
69
Milwaukee, WI
The bigger issue, in my opinion, is that if the promised EAP features like NOA continue to improve on HW3 and beyond while the software on my car with HW2.5 (2018 M3) stagnates due to hardware limitations. In that case then I would feel entitled to a free hardware upgrade.
 

Barklikeadog

Active Member
Jul 13, 2016
1,881
1,904
PA
The bigger issue, in my opinion, is that if the promised EAP features like NOA continue to improve on HW3 and beyond while the software on my car with HW2.5 (2018 M3) stagnates due to hardware limitations. In that case then I would feel entitled to a free hardware upgrade.
LOL I saw an argument on another site over the definition of 'hardware'.

I find it bizarre how many people come to the defense of a 700 billion dollar company that is obviously screwing over customers here. It's like Apple fanboys. Apple is perhaps the most ruthless of them all...but so many think apple = peace signs and rainbows.
 

mark95476

Active Member
Jun 21, 2020
1,979
1,523
Bay Area CA
You guys should start a GoFundMe.... ;)

LOL I saw an argument on another site over the definition of 'hardware'.

I find it bizarre how many people come to the defense of a 700 billion dollar company that is obviously screwing over customers here. It's like Apple fanboys. Apple is perhaps the most ruthless of them all...but so many think apple = peace signs and rainbows.

The bigger issue, in my opinion, is that if the promised EAP features like NOA continue to improve on HW3 and beyond while the software on my car with HW2.5 (2018 M3) stagnates due to hardware limitations. In that case then I would feel entitled to a free hardware upgrade.
 
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