I have a mid-range model 3 2018. It was 264 range when released now the standard plus has 263. Will the older rear wheel drive models see a range increase? I have not heard anything.
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With the new refresh on model 3s and new ranges. Will older models get a range increase?
- Thread starter borijess3
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Candleflame
Active Member
there is no such thing as a range increase unless tesla admitted they have locked a portion of the battery.
DirtyT3sla
Member
No. The new ranges are due to physical changes such as a heat pump and other physical efficiency improvements.
I don't completely agree with this. I see where you are coming from, but there could be other optimizations done that cause the overall system to use less power. Shutting down unneeded processors, running fans at lower speeds after a bit more real-world experience, changing the power curve or other behaviors of the motors and so on. You'd think most of these things would have been done before first release, but HW3(as an example) certainly wasn't there for first-release.
Candleflame
Active Member
The efficiency gain from optimization would be marginally at best. Auxillary power draw already has neglible impact as it is.
Simply remapping the typical range doesnt do anything but change the scale.
sublimejackman
Member
I took delivery of a M3 DM LR three weeks ago. When I purchased it, the 0-60 time as 4.4s. After updating to 2020.40.4 a few nights ago, it now says 4.2s and there is a noticeable improvement in acceleration. Also, I charge to 78% for daily use, before the update, it was 248miles, now it's 256miles est. range. So there are some improvement already.
We confirmed that the new M3 do NOT have the Model Y heat pump and have the same motors/battery pack. So there may be some other efficiencies that are software related to get that improved range. Ben Sullins speculated earlier this week that the range improvements are likely to come to the post-june 2020 M3 DM LR.
We confirmed that the new M3 do NOT have the Model Y heat pump and have the same motors/battery pack. So there may be some other efficiencies that are software related to get that improved range. Ben Sullins speculated earlier this week that the range improvements are likely to come to the post-june 2020 M3 DM LR.
They've also increased range with motor controller updates before. I'm not saying it will happen but it's not impossible.
Well, the latest software update (2020.40.8) contains this release note: Your car's range has increased with new software that improves the efficiency of the motors and the climate control system.
It's for the new Y admittedly but still, it seems range enhancements are coming as software. I just don't know if that applies to any other model.
It's for the new Y admittedly but still, it seems range enhancements are coming as software. I just don't know if that applies to any other model.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I think in this case you are referring to "displayed range," not achievable range, and I agree with this. I don't think (other than briefly on 2020 Model 3 vehicles in late 2019, due to a constant change, which doesn't really count as it was just lagging software) we've ever seen a range increase on Model 3 without a capacity increase (capacity increase happened on 310->325 LR RWD software update; according to EPA results, it took the unlocked capacity from ~76kWh to ~79kWh).
As others have said...Tesla has increased efficiency (and thus real-world range) (without changing the displayed range of course) on a couple occasions in the past on the Model 3. It does not appear to have been hardware related because the software updates claimed improved efficiency on the screen in older vehicles. It was fairly significant - a few % it appears. There is circumstantial evidence to see how large it was, by looking at the EPA efficiency achieved on the 2019 model vs. the 2020 model (2020 EPA result for efficiency was much better, and there are no known significant hardware differences). A portion of these improvements may have been due to hold mode/regen adjustments, a portion may have been due to motor controller efficiency optimizations, a portion could be due to Superbottle optimizations, etc.
That being said, and actually because of that, I agree with your second comment, and I think it's very unlikely that there will be significant additional improvements to range for 2020 and older vehicles. They've likely already scavenged almost all of what they can. As someone else mentioned, it's possible that some more recent 2020 vehicles will receive some efficiency improvement, depending on what hardware they have (see below; they wouldn't necessarily have to have the heat pump...). Very speculative; I have no idea. We'll see what the screen in peoples' cars says (making the assumption that Tesla doesn't screw up that display and claim an improvement where none exists).
Regardless, even if some of these 2020 vehicles get an efficiency and range increase for some optimization reasons, I don't expect the displayed range to change at all (that would be a deviation from past practice). But that wouldn't automatically mean they don't get any range increase! You can get a range increase without getting a "range" increase.
I suspect the range improvements on the 2021 vehicles are due to additional hardware enhancements that allow them to scavenge additional energy to optimize the UDDS and HWYFET cycle results (octovalve, lower friction motors perhaps, pump optimizations, etc.). And then of course the 5-cycle results (especially the 20F one) are improved by the insulation, heat pump, and other cold-weather optimizations - which allows them to legally use a larger scalar of ~0.75 rather than 0.7 when scaling the UDDS and HWYFET results. So the 2-cycle results (which may also be slightly improved due to aforementioned scavenging, but are all that are used directly in the EPA results, and are not directly affected by the heat pump) "go further" due to better 5-cycle results.
EPA Range = (0.55*UDDS+0.45*HWYFET) * scalar.
In 2018-2020, scalar was 0.7032.
In 2021, it's likely higher, probably ~0.75. We'll know soon. And then we'll be able to put together a pareto of where the range increases came from, and then perhaps triangulate back to how older vehicles might be affected and how much "worse" they really are.
As I've said elsewhere, I do think it's possible that later in 2021 we may see a capacity unlock for some of these 2021 vehicles if they include the higher capacity batteries, and an increase in displayed range. Personally I think it's unlikely that a capacity increase is the reason for the initial increased range on these 2021 vehicles, but it is certainly possible, and I don't feel super strongly about it. I would just bet against it, if I had to bet. Summary: I think ~370 rated miles is on the table for 2021 vehicles if they are getting the 5% capacity increase Panasonic is working on. And if that unlock is not currently enabled, but happens on existing 2021 vehicles later, it would show up as a displayed range increase (which would also mean an actual range increase of course) at that time.
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BOBTHEJOCKEY
Member
The Model 3 short range now goes 262 miles. My range was 250 miles when I bought it in March 2020. I am told the Chinese short range model 3 will go 290 miles. I am told I have to trade in my car to get any longer range. WHY can't I just buy a new battery? This makes NO SENSE to me??
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Are you saying you got a software update that increased your displayed range to 262 at 100%? I don’t think that is what you are saying, but thought I would ask!
Maybe I read that posters post wrong, but I read it as "we (myself and my significant other) have confirmed that the model 3 that I bought 3 weeks ago doesnt have the new heat pump".... not "it has been confirmed that new 2021 model 3s not delivered yet do not have the heat pump".
Maybe I was reading it wrong.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I guess I missed this before.
This would be interesting because it would probably imply a 3% capacity increase. Which is somewhat in keeping with what others have speculated (@TimothyHW3 for example). It also aligns with the 580/560 ratio for the WLTP cycle.
Presumably this would mean that it has the newer higher capacity Panasonic batteries.
It's unlikely to be efficiency improvements, because Tesla doesn't typically increase displayed range with efficiency improvements.
So if this information is confirmed (would be nice to see a picture of the software update info for the update that changed the range), it mostly seems to point to a larger capacity.
You could also take a picture of the Energy -> Consumption screen and capture the three numbers at high SoC: Numerical displayed remaining range, projected range, and recent efficiency. All with three significant digits. (It's super important to capture all THREE numbers - the number next to the battery, efficiency, and projected range.)
That would help confirm the charge constant is still about 241Wh/rmi. If that remains the same and your 100% displayed range next to the battery icon (not projected range) is higher than the original 322 for 2020 Model 3, it means a capacity unlock. There would be no ambiguity.
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
No, there isn't.
Humans are notoriously bad at judging this stuff- but the only improvement was on paper- Tesla updated their website, finally, to reflect the 5% power bump that happened last year-
LR AWD went from 4.4 to 4.2 (though it's actually 3.9 if you measure the same way they do the P)
LR AWD with boost went from 3.9 to 3.7 (though it's actually 3.5 if you measure the same way as P)
And P went from 3.2 to 3.1
But those cars were already that quick.
No additional power has been added, and folks with calibrated measuring devices have tested since the website was changed, and no difference in measured times.
Candleflame
Active Member
thats different due to torque mapping from avoiding torque ripple. You cant compare this with just adding 40km of range.
sublimejackman
Member
So I haven't charged the car past 90% (and never will) and if I had, I have a feeling the total charge would still be the same. Probably a CYA move on Tesla's part. From the word on the street, it seems like the post-June 2020 M3s have the same hardware as the new refreshed ones. I have Tezlab, so I can keep track of overall consumption per trip. On Sunday, I'm doing the same 50+ mile drive I did the first week I had the car, I'll report if there is an improvement in wh per mile. I have a feeling there will be at least a 3%-5% improvement.
Also, I drive the car like a teenager. So I'm sitting at 283wh/mi for an average since I got the car (967mi). But we shall see if that starts to improve. I didn't take a baseline from before 2020.40.4. I now have 2020.40.8. Not sure if that makes a difference but I charged to 78% today and it is showing 254mi.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I didn't. I was correcting the previous guy who though his car magically got faster last week when it didn't.
sublimejackman
Member
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