Without autopilot, I'm surprised German car sales haven't fallen even more

[Dutchie]

Don't forget we are just within the 2.5%. You might not understand why people buy a big German Car. People who own a Tesla at the moment are all "innovators" on Roger's Bell Curve. It will come. It just takes time.

Technology adoption life cycle - Wikipedia

 

[calisnow]

Of course it has grown. Whenever a new choice is introduced, it's market share can only go up (since it starts with 0%).

I think what he meant was that he feels that the technological gap between Tesla and its competitors has grown - not market share (which has also grown, but I don't think that was his point).

 

[calisnow]

Don't forget we are just within the 2.5%. You might not understand why people buy a big German Car. People who own a Tesla at the moment are all "innovators" on Roger's Bell Curve. It will come. It just takes time.

True, but I have owned a bunch of big German cars from Audi/BMW/Benz - I get their appeal. I like them (especially the E39 BMW 540i/M5) - but autopilot has instantly rendered them dinosaurs (to me). Also I may be distorted living in Southern California - huge distances to drive frequently coupled with bad traffic. It's the most useful scenario for autopilot.

 

[Gig103]

True, but I have owned a bunch of big German cars from Audi/BMW/Benz - I get their appeal. I like them (especially the E39 BMW 540i/M5) - but autopilot has instantly rendered them dinosaurs (to me). Also I may be distorted living in Southern California - huge distances to drive frequently coupled with bad traffic. It's the most useful scenario for autopilot.

Slightly OT - I was told by the sales guy that AP is meant more for freeways instead of around town (more consistent lane markers and traffic to follow). Is your traffic on freeways or was AP's usefulness being downplayed?

 

[calisnow]

Slightly OT - I was told by the sales guy that AP is meant more for freeways instead of around town (more consistent lane markers and traffic to follow). Is your traffic on freeways or was AP's usefulness being downplayed?

My traffic is on freeways, yes - so it's the most-useful autopilot use scenario. I have spent some time in Phoenix lately and I have two things to say:

1 - Your roads kick our roads' asses. In Phoenix a Tesla on coils feels smooth as a water bed.
2 - Your traffic just never seems to get as bad as ours does. Our "rush hour" has expanded over the years to the point where if you want to leave downtown Los Angeles to travel 60 miles east in one hour you better leave no later than 1 pm. It's just nuts out here.

 

[Chopr147]

related: Germany Says Tesla Should Not Use ‘Autopilot’ in Advertising

I am a little suspicious about Germany's sudden concern about AP. Could it have anything to do with Tesla solidly outselling BMW and MB? Maybe CEO's from each whispering in the ear of the gov't hacks?

 

[McRat]

I am a little suspicious about Germany's sudden concern about AP. Could it have anything to do with Tesla solidly outselling BMW and MB? Maybe CEO's from each whispering in the ear of the gov't hacks?

There was a time when it the USA driving auto safety laws. Today, it's Europe and they can get really crazy with them.

Like... You can go to war and drive a tank or ride a scouting motorcycle. But when you are discharged, you are still not old enough to ride a full sized motorcycle. You are limited to A2 geldings.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

I'm still waiting for our Government to send me a certified letter saying "fire hot - don't touch".

 

[Just a Reader]

I am a little suspicious about Germany's sudden concern about AP. Could it have anything to do with Tesla solidly outselling BMW and MB? Maybe CEO's from each whispering in the ear of the gov't hacks?

Tesla should be glad that European authorities are far less aggressive in pursuing non-compliant companies. If Europe were like the US you would see officials in every country jumping up and down waiting to have a go at Tesla with plenty of publicity. There is e.g. no chance that Tesla is in compliance with European data protection laws.

BTW, Fiat Chrysler's European diesel cars simply switch off their exhaust controls after 22 minutes (the emissions test lasts 20 minutes). Compared to that VW is almost exemplary (FIAT/Chrysler still manages to hide behind Italian authorities). GM's diesel cars also violated emissions regulation.

 

[wycolo]

@Just a Reader - That's a whole bunch of interesting headlines, any links?
--

 

[Just a Reader]

For Fiat: Now Germany Is Accusing FIAT of Running Dirty Diesels

The case has been escalated to the EU by now as Italy refused to take any action.

For GM e.g.: GM Accused of Exploiting Loophole on Emissions Testing in Europe
news: DUH: Opel Zafira diesel shows emission testing irregularities

There's plenty of information to be found on these issues.

 

[McRat]

... GM's diesel cars also violated emissions regulation.

I assume you can back up that statement with a statement from the EPA, CARB, or the Justice Dept?

If you are going say an engineering team are criminals, you should probably have some hard facts, right?

In fact, it appears that the public employees may have skewed test results in Europe to falsely accuse Opel of wrongdoing.

We will see. Right now, it sure looks like Opel and GM are honest, but the environmental and government staffers are fibbing.

 

[Chopr147]

Tesla should be glad that European authorities are far less aggressive in pursuing non-compliant companies. If Europe were like the US you would see officials in every country jumping up and down waiting to have a go at Tesla with plenty of publicity. There is e.g. no chance that Tesla is in compliance with European data protection laws.

BTW, Fiat Chrysler's European diesel cars simply switch off their exhaust controls after 22 minutes (the emissions test lasts 20 minutes). Compared to that VW is almost exemplary (FIAT/Chrysler still manages to hide behind Italian authorities). GM's diesel cars also violated emissions regulation.

I believe in some European countries now the consumer has to turn "on " the data collection. It is "off "by default.
What VW did is downright illegal and they are now paying for it.
The German gov't will do plenty for the German brand, even knock down competitors. Just my opinion.

 

[McRat]

BTW - I have been involved with the engine control tuning of GM diesels for the aftermarket since 2004.

I have yet to see anything in the code that is any different than how all ICE emission systems operate.

So if GM is cheating, all cars since 1996 in the USA have been cheating.

 

[Just a Reader]

[QUOTE="McRat, post: 1783679, member: 42586"

We will see. Right now, it sure looks like Opel and GM are honest, but the environmental and government staffers are fibbing.[/QUOTE]

Oh, right, we are talking about the company that hid a lethal defect of its ignition switches? That kind of honest? It has been well noted how easily GM was let off there.
There is a growing perception in Europe that the US is ripping off European companies with all sorts of fines. It's to be expected that the ruling against Apple as regards their tax arrangements is just a first step of the response.

 

[whitex]

I am a little suspicious about Germany's sudden concern about AP. Could it have anything to do with Tesla solidly outselling BMW and MB? Maybe CEO's from each whispering in the ear of the gov't hacks?

Anything is possible, however it is also possible that this is out of genuine concern for people's safety. I am a big Tesla fan, on my second Tesla, but if I was getting one for my wife I would explicitly NOT get auto pilot. I would also advise against auto-pilot if my parents were to get a Tesla. I think people who drive in CA or other areas well populated with Tesla and good weather have a skewed view. I drive around Seattle where there are plenty of Teslas too. There the danger is that the AP works so well, you learn to trust it, and then there is this one time when it tries to hurt you. I also recently took the car on a 5000+ mile trip and found other issues. For example, after heavy rain autopilot insists on driving in the tire grooves filled with water causing the car to hydroplane. On roads less well travelled, it even surprised me how bad it is - I was demonstrating AP to a family member on a rural road with a very clear center lane marking but no side lines (a bit of gravel next to asphalt and a ditch mark the side of the road). The AP tried to steer into the ditch on the very first slight curve. This surprised me as I've driven on roads worse than this around Seattle and it worked well, so either it was because this time I was in an area probably not travelled by Tesla's much (farm country in Ontario, Canada), or maybe 8.0 regressed in its capabilities.

Can AP be great, yes, but not in it's current incarnation. For now, it's an indefinite beta feature for early adopters, not for the masses - for most people current AP is probably a hazard.

 

[mspohr]

Ha ha! The parade continues on. So keep on marching.

I think we should look at the age banding for S Class, E Class, A8 (maybe A6), 7 Series, as compared to MS/X. I will bet dollars to donuts that we are younger, hipper (and have more insurance-!Fried Green Tomatoes for those not in the know) than the other populations. I find that the older the person I talk to about AP, the more resistant, even scared, they are about a car driving itself. The younger, under 40 crowd, think it's cool. A generalization, I know.

I'm 58. But I have always been a tech nerd. So bring it on.

Oh, and it actually is raining up here. Halle-f.ing-lujah!

Hey, get off my lawn!
I'm 68 (and somewhat of a tech nerd) so I don't think it's just age.
I never even considered buying any of the other luxury sedans. I thought it was ridiculous to spend that much money on any car. However, Tesla was a compelling value since it's the first practical electric car... good for the environment, beautiful car, incredible performance.
I do see people with those other luxury cars and think, What a waste, you could have had a Tesla.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I believe in some European countries now the consumer has to turn "on " the data collection. It is "off "by default.

Yup, that's correct. We have an extra "Share Data?" button-option is Settings. There was absolutely no indication that this had been added, that I noticed, so only people who know about it somehow are likely to turn ON Data Collection (I saw a video that Bjorn had made). Perhaps Tesla will send out a "Hey guys, dunno if you know but we'd really appreciate it if ..." mailing to folks in EU, otherwise data collection is going to be ... ermmm ... rather thin

 

[democappy]

I always think autopilot is overhyped here. AP is not in my top 5 things I love about my Tesla. Might not even crack the top 10 for me. Since 95% of my driving is daily commuting on roads that are 35-45 miles per hour I am not the ideal test case for the awesomeness of AP, but I assume I am not some crazy outlier either.

 

[doubleohwhat]

Same here. AP was not the reason I bought a Tesla and I honestly have little interest or use for it.